Why are recovery rates so low today ?

[jonesg]

“This is why -- freedom from alcohol – through the teaching and practice of A.A.’s Twelve Steps, is the sole purpose of the group. If we don’t stick to this cardinal principle, we shall almost certainly collapse. And if we collapse we cannot help anyone,”

Bill W. in a letter written in 1966, over 31 years after his last drink.

I decided to take this quote and explore it in a new thread.

Did you ever ponder the success rates of past AA compared to the dismal failure rates today? I've seen numbers below 5%.

What changed?

Alcohol is the same, alcoholism is no different.
I thought yesteryears alcoholics were worse, but the people who die from it today are just as dead.

Theres something in Bill's statement above.
I attended a few steps study meetings early and got sicker. When I quit studying and got into doing the steps I got better immediately.
In step study we read the 12x12 , then talked about it, all I had was opinions, I had zip for experience.
And I had gone to the study group because I thought I had to work the steps. But we weren't doing it.
I asked for someone to guide me through the steps and got no takers.
There were a few meetings like that, no-one was willing to take me on when I mentioned the steps.

[Pythonpappy]

I decided to take this quote and explore it in a new thread.

Did you ever ponder the success rates of past AA compared to the dismal failure rates today? I've seen numbers below 5%.

What changed?

Alcohol is the same, alcoholism is no different.
I thought yesteryears alcoholics were worse, but the people who die from it today are just as dead.

Theres something in Bill's statement above.
I attended a few steps study meetings early and got sicker. When I quit studying and got into doing the steps I got better immediately.
In step study we read the 12x12 , then talked about it, all I had was opinions, I had zip for experience.
And I had gone to the study group because I was desperate to work the steps.

Hey Jonesy, ... You really do have a knack for sending me into 'deep' thought, Ha! :162: ...

This is how I feel ... Before the BB was actually published, the early groups got together for meetings and enjoyed a 50+% success rate, if I'm not mistaken ... They used Dr. Bob's bible (which he called the Good Book) for a platform of discussions ... They used the Oxford group's success, at the time, to build a spiritually based foundation to work with ... When they saw it worked to give other alcoholics a sense of hope through believing in God and through learning the basic Christian principles and how to apply this to an individual's way of living life, they saw great success in the 'desire to drink' being lifted ...

They even at one point, considered calling themselves the 'James Group' or the 'James Gang' or something like that because they most frequently used the book of James, in the New Testament, to read and study from ... Success was great using the Christian principles that were discussed at length at these meetings ...

The 'Catch 22' was, that they wanted to include, or make it attractive to, other people of other religious beliefs or backgrounds ... So the dominating christianity theme was pushed to the back while opening the doors to all others ... This one change kept AA from being exclusive and thereby inviting all people with a drinking problem to participate ... ergo the drop in the success rate ...

My observation today is that those who come to accept the christian values of the program enjoy a much higher rate of success than those who struggle with the 'concept' of God ... All of the 'relapsers' I've come to know admitted they had stopped their prayers to God and started relying on their own power instead ... The AA program was born of christian beliefs ... (all you have to do is read the Bible to confirm that) ... But no religion has any part in our program! (religion being man made and not part of the Good Book)

End the end, we shy away from concentrating on the 'God' part of our program so that we don't 'OFFEND' anyone, and therein lies the problem of having a higher rate of success ... It really makes me sit back and shake my head at times ... The answer is right there in front of us if we could only learn to open our eyes enough to see it!


Good Topic, thanks and may God Bless,:42:
Pappy

[Chance]

IMO it isn't The Programs (recovery rate) as it is more the people who attend The Program. The Program hasn't changed it is the people who interpret The Program that has changed.

[jonesg]

Hey Jonesy, ... You really do have a knack for sending me into 'deep' thought, Ha! :162: ...

This is how I feel ... Before the BB was actually published, the early groups got together for meetings and enjoyed a 50+% success rate, if I'm not mistaken ... They used Dr. Bob's bible (which he called the Good Book) for a platform of discussions ... They used the Oxford group's success, at the time, to build a spiritually based foundation to work with ... When they saw it worked to give other alcoholics a sense of hope through believing in God and through learning the basic Christian principles and how to apply this to an individual's way of living life, they saw great success in the 'desire to drink' being lifted ...

They even at one point, considered calling themselves the 'James Group' or the 'James Gang' or something like that because they most frequently used the book of James, in the New Testament, to read and study from ... Success was great using the Christian principles that were discussed at length at these meetings ...

The 'Catch 22' was, that they wanted to include, or make it attractive to, other people of other religious beliefs or backgrounds ... So the dominating christianity theme was pushed to the back while opening the doors to all others ... This one change kept AA from being exclusive and thereby inviting all people with a drinking problem to participate ... ergo the drop in the success rate ...

My observation today is that those who come to accept the christian values of the program enjoy a much higher rate of success than those who struggle with the 'concept' of God ... All of the 'relapsers' I've come to know admitted they had stopped their prayers to God and started relying on their own power instead ... The AA program was born of christian beliefs ... (all you have to do is read the Bible to confirm that) ... But no religion has any part in our program! (religion being man made and not part of the Good Book)

End the end, we shy away from concentrating on the 'God' part of our program so that we don't 'OFFEND' anyone, and therein lies the problem of having a higher rate of success ... It really makes me sit back and shake my head at times ... The answer is right there in front of us if we could only learn to open our eyes enough to see it!


Good Topic, thanks and may God Bless,:42:
Pappy


Good response, lots of factual truth there except, early AA was very successful even after ditching the oxfords.
Especially in Cleveland with Clarence S , it was far better than Bill's squad in NY. It continued that way all through the 1940's.

I was scolded by a young christian once that I ought to be telling newcomers about Jesus, my response is its better to teach them how to be a fisher of men than drive them away with religion. God wants spiritual fruits, not religious nuts.

I haven't noticed God being pushed out of AA but I have seen attempts.
I was at a rehab in a small meeting and one of the patients opined that God was driving people away from AA and "you guys should stop bringing God into it so much". My feeling is if God drives em out, the booze will drive them back.

[jonesg]

IMO it isn't The Programs (recovery rate) as it is more the people who attend The Program. The Program hasn't changed it is the people who interpret The Program that has changed.

How so? do you mean the non alcoholics in AA watering it down?
I've seen some of that, some meetings have no recovery, its not even AA.

[saved1]

We see so many people in meetings, and out on the streets, still stumbling around with the program, hurting, whining and crying, still all covered up with the Great 3 S's of our disease, Self-pity, Self-righteousness, and Self-Bull****, and wondering why they can't get "IT" . . . :44:

Getting "It"
As you may know, the main thrust of all my pages, as I do my thing, trying to carry a message of love and hope and peace and sobriety and sobermindedness into this world, has always been the education and enlightenment of the individual, especially me . . . it all starts there, with each individual coming to peace within themselves getting "it" . . . You know, the "it" of chapter 5, "If you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get "it", then you are ready to take certain steps . . . :blush:
http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt5.pdf
Now, with regard to getting "it", that so many are searching for, this definition speaks to me, "It" being the ability to live one day at a time, sober, happy, joyous and free, grateful and FULLY ALIVE, content in the sufficiency of God's Grace and the generosity of our Earth Mother, without self-destructing. :rolleyes:

I don't know how many times I have stood there in the middle of the room, stomping up and down shaking my fist and cussing at my HP, "Dammit, Charlie, when the hell am I gonna get mine?", just having a **** fit . . . and the answer always comes the same . . . the still, small voice that says,"Bob, The reward for 78 years of life and 37 years of sobriety is 78 years of life and 37 years of sobriety, that's it, that's all, ain't no more, sorry about that, that's it." . . . and I am very grateful for that answer . . . :D

Remember, as we trudge along this Road to Happy Destiny, we are not here to be the "achiever", we are here on this planet to be the "achievement", God's Achievement, whatever that is to be, and we most likely will never know. :162:

So there you have it . . . that is the way "it" is at the moment . . .

It Is No Secret What God Can Do

"When you are awake the dream is gone...
When you are Enlightened the 'world of illusion' is gone...
...and the TRUTH will make you FREE." :cool:
KEEP COMING BACK! ONE DAY AT A TIME!

In every meeting the Prescription is read and heard and referred to, on the walls in posters. It is spelled out precisely in the BigBook on Pages 59 and 60.:cool:
http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt5.pdf

Unwilling to disregard fear, and the 7 deadlies mentioned in the 12x12 on page 48, http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt4.pdf
you know, pride, greed, lust, anger, gluttony, envy and SLOTH , people trouble themselves in vain to read the teachings. They see the prescription, but don't take the medicine --- How then can they do away with their illness?" :rolleyes:

From the Big Book Page 72, Chapter 6, INTO ACTION . . . :281:
http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt6.pdf
"In actual practice, we usually find a solitary self-appraisal insufficient. Many of us thought it necessary to go much farther.:1: We will be more reconciled to discussing ourselves with another person when we see good reasons why we should do so. :1: The best reason first: If we skip this vital step, we may not overcome drinking. Time after time newcomers have tried to keep to themselves certain facts about their lives.:rolleyes: Trying to avoid this humbling experience, they have turned to easier methods.:6: Almost invariably they got drunk.:shocked: Having persevered with the rest of the program, they wondered why they fell.:sad: We think the reason is that they never completed their housecleaning.:eek: They took inventory all right, but hung on to some of the worst items in stock.:rolleyes: They only thought they had lost their egoism and fear; they only thought they had humbled themselves.:confused: But they had not learned enough of humility, fearlessness and HONESTY, in the sense we find it necessary:15:, until they told someone else ALL of their life story. :42:

As it was told to me, "Until someone in AA knows everything you know about yourself, you are nowhere." :idea:

WHY???
Because, until the steps are done thoroughly, and the garbage resolved and eliminated, the old thought system still has a basis for return. :1:

And they still wonder why they are not Getting "IT" :cry:

"Half-measures availed us nothing!!" :shocked:

On Page 98 of the Big Book
http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt7.pdf
"Burn the idea into the consciousness of every man [and woman] that he [she] can get well regardless of anyone. The only condition is that he [she] trust in God and clean house." :15:

The Steps of the Program are the Mops and Brooms to Clean House.:1:

It isn't any secret, friends, it is all spelled out clearly. There are 12 things to do, and one to not do, no matter what. :blush:

If the steps are not done, and done thoroughly, then the individual must live with the consequences of that decision or lack of decision.
http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt11.pdf
. . Sorry about that, but that is the way it is, One Day At A Time. :cool:

Three mighty important things, Pardn'r, LOVE And PEACE and "IT"
(Share-perspective.)
Love and Peace, Barefoot

[Chance]

Originally Posted by Chance View Post
IMO it isn't The Programs (recovery rate) as it is more the people who attend The Program. The Program hasn't changed it is the people who interpret The Program that has changed.
How so? do you mean the non alcoholics in AA watering it down?
I've seen some of that, some meetings have no recovery, its not even AA.
Boy I just love discussions that involve recovery.

I don't know much, however....

One thing that I was taught early on was from my sponsor. When I got involved in AA in 2001 I was taught that the AA Big Book is our road map to life and how to live. When I first got a sponsor, I asked Him, "Sam, What do you want me to do?" He said, "Vic, I want you to read the first 164 pages of the Big Book." I was so excited :lol: I said, "Well I am going to read a chapter a night (to myself I spoke). " When I got done it was about 11 days later. I went up to my sponsor after the meeting and I said, "Sam! I got done reading the first 164 pages of the Big Book like you said. Now what do you want me to do?" He replied, "Re-Read it!"

Well I went and read it again, I did take a little longer than the previous 11 days. Actually I think that it took me about 14 days. Once I got that done I went to my normal meeting which Sam was there. After the meeting, I went up to him and we just started to talk about Recovery. Now here if you are keeping track of days, I am now about 25 days sober. I didn't ask Sam what he wanted me to do that night, I KNEW, Re-Ready (Study) the first 164 pages of the AA Big Book.

See the Program of Recovery is the first 164 pages of the Big Book. That is what had, that is all that they had after the oxford group.

One thing is you or should I say, I used to hear a lot of sayings in our meetings, and today, when I go, you hardly even hear sayings. example: The further I am away from my last drink, the closer I am to my next drunk. Or, Think the drink all the way through, etc.

The sayings, the stuff that the oldtimers taught us seems to be leaving the meetings. I think IMO that it isn't The Program that has changed, it is the people that attend them. When we start carrying on about Sally's blind cat who has cancer, rather than Joe the Drunk under the bridge than we are not there for our common welfare. We are joined together through Alcoholism not just the ism.

Also what about 12 step calls? When I first got in The Program in 2001 we had many 12 Step Calls on people who needed recovery. Today, all you hear about is so and so is back into Treatment. I am not putting down treatment (although I have never been inpatient.) I am just saying that is something that is lacking as well.

What about the saying, "You can only keep what you have by giving it away?"

Thanks For allowing me to share.

[jonesg]

Boy I just love discussions that involve recovery.

I don't know much, however....

One thing that I was taught early on was from my sponsor. When I got involved in AA in 2001 I was taught that the AA Big Book is our road map to life and how to live. When I first got a sponsor, I asked Him, "Sam, What do you want me to do?" He said, "Vic, I want you to read the first 164 pages of the Big Book." I was so excited :lol: I said, "Well I am going to read a chapter a night (to myself I spoke). " When I got done it was about 11 days later. I went up to my sponsor after the meeting and I said, "Sam! I got done reading the first 164 pages of the Big Book like you said. Now what do you want me to do?" He replied, "Re-Read it!"

Well I went and read it again, I did take a little longer than the previous 11 days. Actually I think that it took me about 14 days. Once I got that done I went to my normal meeting which Sam was there. After the meeting, I went up to him and we just started to talk about Recovery. Now here if you are keeping track of days, I am now about 25 days sober. I didn't ask Sam what he wanted me to do that night, I KNEW, Re-Ready (Study) the first 164 pages of the AA Big Book.

See the Program of Recovery is the first 164 pages of the Big Book. That is what had, that is all that they had after the oxford group.

One thing is you or should I say, I used to hear a lot of sayings in our meetings, and today, when I go, you hardly even hear sayings. example: The further I am away from my last drink, the closer I am to my next drunk. Or, Think the drink all the way through, etc.

The sayings, the stuff that the oldtimers taught us seems to be leaving the meetings. I think IMO that it isn't The Program that has changed, it is the people that attend them. When we start carrying on about Sally's blind cat who has cancer, rather than Joe the Drunk under the bridge than we are not there for our common welfare. We are joined together through Alcoholism not just the ism.

Also what about 12 step calls? When I first got in The Program in 2001 we had many 12 Step Calls on people who needed recovery. Today, all you hear about is so and so is back into Treatment. I am not putting down treatment (although I have never been inpatient.) I am just saying that is something that is lacking as well.

What about the saying, "You can only keep what you have by giving it away?"

Thanks For allowing me to share.

"Think through the drink" isn't heard much probably because its rehab abstinence management psychology. For an alcoholic it makes as much sense as telling someone with diahhorea to "think through the crap".
These are well meant sentiments by non alcoholics who don't understand the problem the alcoholic faces.

[jonesg]

We see so many people in meetings, and out on the streets, still stumbling around with the program, hurting, whining and crying, still all covered up with the Great 3 S's of our disease, Self-pity, Self-righteousness, and Self-Bull****, and wondering why they can't get "IT" . . . :44:

Getting "It"
As you may know, the main thrust of all my pages, as I do my thing, trying to carry a message of love and hope and peace and sobriety and sobermindedness into this world, has always been the education and enlightenment of the individual, especially me . . . it all starts there, with each individual coming to peace within themselves getting "it" . . . You know, the "it" of chapter 5, "If you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get "it", then you are ready to take certain steps . . . :blush:
http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt5.pdf
Now, with regard to getting "it", that so many are searching for, this definition speaks to me, "It" being the ability to live one day at a time, sober, happy, joyous and free, grateful and FULLY ALIVE, content in the sufficiency of God's Grace and the generosity of our Earth Mother, without self-destructing. :rolleyes:

I don't know how many times I have stood there in the middle of the room, stomping up and down shaking my fist and cussing at my HP, "Dammit, Charlie, when the hell am I gonna get mine?", just having a **** fit . . . and the answer always comes the same . . . the still, small voice that says,"Bob, The reward for 78 years of life and 37 years of sobriety is 78 years of life and 37 years of sobriety, that's it, that's all, ain't no more, sorry about that, that's it." . . . and I am very grateful for that answer . . . :D

Remember, as we trudge along this Road to Happy Destiny, we are not here to be the "achiever", we are here on this planet to be the "achievement", God's Achievement, whatever that is to be, and we most likely will never know. :162:

So there you have it . . . that is the way "it" is at the moment . . .

It Is No Secret What God Can Do

"When you are awake the dream is gone...
When you are Enlightened the 'world of illusion' is gone...
...and the TRUTH will make you FREE." :cool:
KEEP COMING BACK! ONE DAY AT A TIME!

In every meeting the Prescription is read and heard and referred to, on the walls in posters. It is spelled out precisely in the BigBook on Pages 59 and 60.:cool:
http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt5.pdf

Unwilling to disregard fear, and the 7 deadlies mentioned in the 12x12 on page 48, http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt4.pdf
you know, pride, greed, lust, anger, gluttony, envy and SLOTH , people trouble themselves in vain to read the teachings. They see the prescription, but don't take the medicine --- How then can they do away with their illness?" :rolleyes:

From the Big Book Page 72, Chapter 6, INTO ACTION . . . :281:
http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt6.pdf
"In actual practice, we usually find a solitary self-appraisal insufficient. Many of us thought it necessary to go much farther.:1: We will be more reconciled to discussing ourselves with another person when we see good reasons why we should do so. :1: The best reason first: If we skip this vital step, we may not overcome drinking. Time after time newcomers have tried to keep to themselves certain facts about their lives.:rolleyes: Trying to avoid this humbling experience, they have turned to easier methods.:6: Almost invariably they got drunk.:shocked: Having persevered with the rest of the program, they wondered why they fell.:sad: We think the reason is that they never completed their housecleaning.:eek: They took inventory all right, but hung on to some of the worst items in stock.:rolleyes: They only thought they had lost their egoism and fear; they only thought they had humbled themselves.:confused: But they had not learned enough of humility, fearlessness and HONESTY, in the sense we find it necessary:15:, until they told someone else ALL of their life story. :42:

As it was told to me, "Until someone in AA knows everything you know about yourself, you are nowhere." :idea:

WHY???
Because, until the steps are done thoroughly, and the garbage resolved and eliminated, the old thought system still has a basis for return. :1:

And they still wonder why they are not Getting "IT" :cry:

"Half-measures availed us nothing!!" :shocked:

On Page 98 of the Big Book
http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt7.pdf
"Burn the idea into the consciousness of every man [and woman] that he [she] can get well regardless of anyone. The only condition is that he [she] trust in God and clean house." :15:

The Steps of the Program are the Mops and Brooms to Clean House.:1:

It isn't any secret, friends, it is all spelled out clearly. There are 12 things to do, and one to not do, no matter what. :blush:

If the steps are not done, and done thoroughly, then the individual must live with the consequences of that decision or lack of decision.
http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt11.pdf
. . Sorry about that, but that is the way it is, One Day At A Time. :cool:

Three mighty important things, Pardn'r, LOVE And PEACE and "IT"
(Share-perspective.)
Love and Peace, Barefoot

Yeh, you're reiterating my whole point, working the steps fell by the wayside.
But the subject line remains, WHY ?

Saying the fellowship changed isn't saying anything because its always changing, newcomers continue to arrive as always.

[Chance]

"Think through the drink" isn't heard much probably because its rehab abstinence management psychology. For an alcoholic it makes as much sense as telling someone with diahhorea to "think through the crap".
These are well meant sentiments by non alcoholics who don't understand the problem the alcoholic faces.

See I never knew that came from Rehab cause I have never been to rehab! The only rehab that I've ever acquired is through the Programs of Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous. I have heard it in meetings, but never understood it from being from the literature.

One thing I would like to add. Is what we hear a lot that is part of our opening. If you can't find it in the AA Big Book, you might want to be careful with how much truth is behind it. I think that is what is hurting our Programs here where I live. There is too much of stuff outside of AA in The Rooms. These things such as Literature that isn't AA approved, etc. violates the Program. In some aspects it is IMO what will cause the Recovery Rate of AA to be less. If we stuck with what was obtained in the Beginning we probably would see the recovery rate of AA rise.

I once heard a guy say that AA doesn't work. I said, "Yeah, it never worked for me cause I never really tried that hard to work "IT!"

[Pythonpappy]

Good response, lots of factual truth there except, early AA was very successful even after ditching the oxfords.
Especially in Cleveland with Clarence S , it was far better than Bill's squad in NY. It continued that way all through the 1940's.

I was scolded by a young christian once that I ought to be telling newcomers about Jesus, my response is its better to teach them how to be a fisher of men than drive them away with religion. God wants spiritual fruits, not religious nuts.

I haven't noticed God being pushed out of AA but I have seen attempts.
I was at a rehab in a small meeting and one of the patients opined that God was driving people away from AA and "you guys should stop bringing God into it so much". My feeling is if God drives em out, the booze will drive them back.

Jonesy, ... See how you are? :tongue: LOL ... Oh boy, ... You are absolutely right, ... my excuse?, I was pressed to leave and go to the hospital to see my son and I rushed my response without thinking it through ... I know, another character defect, let me work on that! ... No matter ... Here's something else for you to chew on ...

While I know the current overall success rate is way down as compared to the early AAers, it seems to me that the early years had the core members exposed to a strong belief in God and there were fewer objections to the discussions including God's word ... Even after the introduction of the BB, I feel those core members maintained God as a topic of discussion in their meetings on a frequent basis ... As you pointed out above, the overall desire to discuss the God part of our program today is meeting with ever increasing resistance to even bring the subject up ... When I am the discussion leader at our meetings and I chose the topic of spirituality or 'conscious contact with God', there is, inevitably, a groan that'll come from some of our members ... Why is that? ...

I'm beginning to think that the God consciousness of the early AAers was much more readily accepted than it is today, ergo, we have fewer members now(percentage wise) that understand that our program is a GOD program ... I mean, seriously, the whole success of recovery is based on the concept of God and whether or not you can accept and live by the principles ... and with the influx of so many not willing to entertain the concept of God nor do they want to hear of it, then you have the recipe for failure ...

The solution? Problem is is that we have so many people with varying degrees of sobriety and varying degrees of where they are in the steps that it's difficult to tailor a meeting that keeps the attraction alive ... If we can just convince the newcommer to keep coming back long enough to get an overall picture of the program, then we may be able to break through some of these barriers they bring with them ... I think it boils down to just how 'open-minded' and how sick they really are ...

I've been around enough groups(fellowships) to know that some groups are better suited to the success of the newcommer than others ... this is usually reflective of the make up of the 'group conscious' ... we also haven't mentioned the car loads of 'court ordered' attendees that walk in the door with no intention of staying sober and how they affect the statistics nor have we discussed just where and how the statistics are derived and who is it that's reporting them? ... (We are anonymous are we not?)


Okay, my little brain cell is crying 'uncle' ... so I'll leave it at that for now ... Thanks Jonesy for the thread ... WOW ... Deep stuff, huh?


Love Ya'll and God Bless,:42:
Pappy

[saved1]

People new to recovery can be triggered to pick up a drink or start using drugs again by certain situations, events or even other people.:cool:
What were the biggest relapse triggers that you have to fight. How do you deal with them? :281:

Readers Respond: By Buddy T.
(SHARE) Perspectives.

Student
My biggest problem is that I'm unemployed. I find out I have more time. I'm depressed so since I have more time and depressed I drink.
—Guest Dennis

Having unexpected money: nasty trigger.
I'm diagnosed Bipolar/Borderline, without drug abuse. Managing emotions and mood swings is a constant battle. Nearly 50, it's still tough. I live in a high-risk building, but it's safe/clean. One person out of over 600 is a problem for me; loneliness leads me to speak to troubled folks. Worst: having money. I devised an elaborate system, which works for long stretches. I have no debit card; I just got rid of a credit card (Bank would not reduce "cash advance."). I cannot manage having $100 in my pocket, even plastic. Shame/guilt for not being able to carry money like "normal people" doesn't help my ego. I've never been a regular user, because my super-ego is too rough on me. I can barely tolerate the light abuse that I've done. I exact a high personal standard, but so does society. They want 100% sobriety, and I expect it, too. Learning to avoid too intense people, places, ideas, etc., is important for those of extremely sensitive constitutions. I accept myself, anyway. I have hope.
—Guest sylvester

Leaving a comfort zone
I went 6 months without drinking, then "lapsed" when I went out of my comfort zone. I took a trip across country to visit my mom. Suddenly I was free of the stress of work, my responsibilities towards my kids and my contentious relationship with my wife. It was just me and a long flight to the east coast, a time that could have been simple and relaxing. I got to the airport on time, made it through security and suddenly I felt so alone and detached, on strange ground. So I went to the concourse bar and ordered the biggest glass of draft brew on the menu. Far from comforting me, it plunged me back into despair. It's been a year since that day and I haven't relapsed since, not even on a much longer and potentially risky trip. I've learned better where the boundaries of my comfort zone lie, and to take better care of myself when I cross over them. Bottom line, it takes time, practice and a willingness to forgive yourself in order to find your "cruising speed" with sobriety.
—Guest Christopher

Wish I had stayed.
I was attending meetings and had a sponsor but could not stay clean. I picked up a drink and the insanity returned just like they all said it would. I can not describe in words how disappointed I am in myself again. This disease is powerful.
—Guest Jeffery

Many reasons to drink
My alcoholic husband of 33 years can't deal with bad feelings. He is functional, but will fail if bad feelings he can't cope with enter his thoughts. He will start with 1 or 2 beers, then doesn't stop. The trigger feelings are: his infidelity, my previous infidelity, losing his job over alcohol firing, inability to forgive himself or others for hurts. As the non-drinking wife, when I come home and he is drunk. I refuse to attempt reasoning with him in his drunken state and announce "I will speak with him in the morning when he is coherent." We stay in different rooms of the home for the night." We will sleep on it, drink coffee and discuss the matter soberly and without judgement, and hope for a good outcome.
—Guest Guest Alks wife 112

Crushed
My husband of 18 years has been a violent drunk - he's got great a job, wonderful kids and wife who love him, beautiful home, most would wish for, right? But alcohol has ruined his life and ours - we have over the years lost all trust in him, destroying the depth of love we had. Alcohol changes him into Jekyl & Hyde. He has been violent over the years where we have had to leave the home for protection. Had to force him out through authority. He still refuses to commit to therapy or rehab or even AA. He wants to do it on his own for the 1000th time-which brings him full circle. The loss, pain, almost death like feeling of losing this amazing friend and love crushes me and children into a depth as we have no control to fix this and it's a place we can't go to and save him - he has to do this on his own, but alas can't see the damage that it doing to himself, the pride. Despair of being unable to heal and take of the person that is your life is the hardest cross to bare! What has he gained/lost.
—Guest Hope

It's hard
I have been sober for 2 years. there are always triggers. some of them aren't all that valid. Sometimes your going to fall. The important thing is not to let it ruin your life get up dust yourself off and rejoin your sobriety. Being an addict sucks. It steals your life away. Used to be when I was angry or upset I would drink. I know that. I now have other things around to do. When I am mad I bead or I have emergency numbers of sober people I can call. That drunk person is a jerk and I am trying to do all I can to not be her anymore.
—Guest stoplightgypsy

Relapse Triggers
I have now been sober for 7 1/2 years. I would say that the only thing that makes me even think about drinking is depression. If I keep my depression and anxiety under control with talk therapy and medication, alcohol never even occurs to me as a solution to my problems. It took many years to get to that point though. And believe it or not I still have drinking dreams even after all this time. I guess I just really keep in mind the fact that alcohol came very, very close to killing me and nothing is worth losing your life.
—Guest Trinity21204

Not AA material
Several posters said "I am not AA material." Where I live there are thousands of meetings and groups. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking and you can meet other AAs even if you are not sure you want to stop. Avoiding the first drink is the key, on a daily basis, and when you feel like drinking picking up the phone and talking to another alcoholic who is or trying to be sober. That simple. It's anonymous so employers don't have to know. It's free so if you are broke you can still participate. I don't know what the term "AA material means." I guess it means someone who still wants to drink or is not looking for fellowship, friendship and help to stay stopped.
—Guest guest eyetrudgeon

Lost my hope
Well, the most wonderful feeling in recovery is rediscovering why a healthy, self-worth, and happy lifestyle is everything. The big reason behind sobriety. A dream so to speak, whether it be a loved one, maybe a job. Basically something or someone that keeps you hopeful. Your "drive" for success. My relapse was when it shattered. A female i held dear to my heart, my dream, my purpose for a future told me she didn't care what happened to me. She didn't care! After 5 to 6 years of my investment. We weren't dating, but i wanted nothing more then to spend my life in her life. My reason to stay clean was gone. Then, so too was i gone on drugs. The light of my candle was put out. I felt hopeless, unloved, and alone. Isolated from the world, like i didn't deserve to live. She was all I cared for. I put her before me! And she in returned stabbed my heart and mentally spat in my face! I simultaneously, ended my life along with the relationship. Drugs eased the pain. It stopped me from feeling.
—Guest imapothead

I'm feeling the same way
Just drank a beer after my 90 day birthday. All of the signs were there that a slip up or worse yet, a relapse was on the way. A relapse begins before you take the first drink. I went to a meeting 5 days before I used. I couldn't connect. It felt like they were speaking a foreign language. This site has helped me by hearing from other people that are going through the same as me. Alcoholism and Addiction. We must fight this disease with vigilance because nothing good will come from our drinking/using. In the end it will totally destroy us. We all know this, if even on a subconscious level, we know this. Talk about cunning and baffling!
—Guest jacqueline

To Hell And Back.
I am one the tail of a three day trip to hell. I am dealing with the withdrawals, guilt, remorse, and the absolute terror of having a relapse after months of alcohol free bliss. My trigger was going out on a first date, and the thought entered my mind to become this relaxed, fun and charming date. Well I got lost, never got to my dates home, was abused with a nasty text. I just felt it would more fun with a few drinks along the way. Well one is too many and 10 are not enough. Needless to say I have no recollection of my movements for 3 days. That is a very scary place to be in. My Mother found me on neighbors garden passed out, and now I have the crap side of abstaining from the alcohol. The headache, heart palpations, anxiety attacks, guilt, shame and feeling like I have let everyone down. So back on the wagon and just left to wonder how I could have been so stupid to pick up the first drink. It's not the last drink that does the damage, always the first one. Tomorrow will bring new hope.

—Hopeful member,
I'm wondering....
I've been unemployed for 2-1/2 yrs. now and drink heavily everyday. I keep saying I will look for work "tomorrow." I know I'm digging my hole deeper everyday. My sister who is also an alcoholic moved in with me due to certain circumstances. She's not in good health mostly due to her own alcohol consumption. My brother-in-law just recently died from alcohol. I feel totally lost and want help. I'm afraid to seek help because I wonder if any hospitalization, etc. could be found out by a potential employer? They DO ask that on the employment applications! I feel totally trapped.
—Lesley114

Relapsed after 18 months - peer pressure
I was sober and largely happy for 18 months after a near fatal bout of alcoholic pnuemonia. I had a friend who was a drinker and said I could probably cope. I have been a saint and still get treated badly at work and by others. I thought-"what's the point of being good when others are bad and life is good to them?" I don't know any alcoholics in their 20's who admit it and am feeling lost. Is it possible to drink normally again? Why doesn't anyone understand we can't just have one?
—Guest Milly

Grown children
Well friends, I can't allow them to pull me under the way I have in the past. Why is it that as parents, we love them unconditionally, yet they judge, belittle, don't even call, and they don't think that hurts. I have to be vigilant when it comes to letting them break my heart, I will drink. It has happened before, but I won't let it happen again. They are 29, 26, 24 and a 8 year old grandson so their lives are a whirlwind and they keep me out of the loop since my divorce from their dad. The hurt can literally drop me to my knees sobbing. It has been 11 years since the split. I have learned to pay no bother to others, that are mean, why can't I deal with them the same way? I will not drink, I will not give in....today.
—Guest kid-o

If you were not able to identify with any of the above stories perhaps reading on will provide the answer sought.:281:you may notice the amount of stories and interpretations are many, but their appears to be only one true answer.:cool:
http://alcoholism.about.com/u/ua/relapse/relapse_triggers.htm?nl=1

[admin]

saved1 you are reading my mind. I just started putting together something on triggers this morning. :1:

[Mountainman]

within a few days they took the newcommer
to some upper room ??
so as to surrender to Christ

then

recommended to them
work with and be with other alcoholics (meetings etc)
read your bible
go to bible studies
probably best to find a church and attend

that was ((nothing)) like the Program we see today


-------- Nothing New Under The Sun --------
back when Moses went up to get the Commandments
what did the people do when he was gone
yes -- kind of like the AA of today
made up their own god
yes they made and worshipped -- the phony little golden calf



how silly it would be to tell Mountainman
make up your own little god in your own little mind
a god that you can work with
a god that loves you even when you are sinning
a god that loves you even when you worship the golden calf

"""that is all bull dung"""
God with a big G is a jealous God



note
when we tell ones to read the first 164 pages
we should remember
until they understand the THE DOCTOR'S OPINION
they probably do not have much of a chance to recover

the phenomenon of craving as mentioned in the AA Big Book
this is where my Sponser takes the newcomer
I think that he took me back to THE DOCTOR'S OPINION for years
yes -- the mountainman was pretty beaten up from the drink and other




just a little from THE DOCTOR'S OPINION

We believe, and so suggested a few years ago, that the action of alcohol on these chronic alcoholics is a manifestation of an allergy; that the phenomenon of craving is limited to this class and never occurs in the average temperate drinker. These allergic types can never safely use alcohol in any form at all; and once having formed the habit and found they cannot break it, once having lost their self-confidence, their reliance upon things human, their problems pile up on them and become astonishingly difficult to solve.

Frothy emotional appeal seldom suffices. The message which can interest and hold these alcoholic people must have depth and weight. In nearly all cases, their ideals must be grounded in a power greater than themselves, if they are to re-create their lives.

Men and women drink essentially because they like the effect produced by alcohol. The sensation is so elusive that, while they admit it is injurious, they cannot after a time differentiate the true from the false. To them, their alcoholic life seems the only normal one. They are restless, irritable and discontented, unless they can again experience the sense of ease and comfort which comes at once by taking a few drinks - drinks which they see others taking with impunity. After they have succumbed to the desire again, as so many do, and the phenomenon of craving develops, they pass through the well-known stages of a spree, emerging remorseful, with a firm resolution not to drink again. This is repeated over and over, and unless this person can experience an entire psychic change there is very little hope of his recovery.

[soberone]

I decided to take this quote and explore it in a new thread.

Did you ever ponder the success rates of past AA compared to the dismal failure rates today? I've seen numbers below 5%.

What changed?

Alcohol is the same, alcoholism is no different.
I thought yesteryears alcoholics were worse, but the people who die from it today are just as dead.

Theres something in Bill's statement above.
I attended a few steps study meetings early and got sicker. When I quit studying and got into doing the steps I got better immediately.
In step study we read the 12x12 , then talked about it, all I had was opinions, I had zip for experience.
And I had gone to the study group because I thought I had to work the steps. But we weren't doing it.
I asked for someone to guide me through the steps and got no takers.
There were a few meetings like that, no-one was willing to take me on when I mentioned the steps.

you just answered your own question i think.. :1:

[admin]

Why are recovery rates so low today ?

H.O.W. - Honesty, Open-minded, Willing

Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest. BB, p.58

Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like, what happened, and what we are like now. If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it-then you are ready to take certain steps.

At some of these we balked. We thought we could find an easier, softer way. But we could not. With all the earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start. Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely. BB, p. 58

Remember that we deal with alcohol-cunning, baffling, powerful! Without help it is too much for us. But there is One who has all power-that One is God. May you find Him now!
Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point. We asked His protection and care with complete abandon.
Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery:
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol — that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs. BB, pp. 58-60

Many of us exclaimed, "What an order! I can't go through with it." Do not be discouraged. No one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence to these principles. We are not saints. The point is, that we are willing to grow along spiritual lines. The principles we have set down are guides to progress. We claim spiritual progress rather than spiritual perfection.

Our description of the alcoholic, the chapter to the agnostic, and our personal adventures before and after make clear three pertinent ideas:

(a) That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives.
(b) That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.
(c) That God could and would if He were sought. BB, p.60

You have to get honest about your drinking and/or using. You have to get honest - period. You have to want it, you have to be willing to go to any lengths. You have to do the footwork. Recovery rates are low because either people don't want to do the work to stay sober and/or clean or they quit doing the work that they were doing to stay sober and/or clean. It doesn't matter what route you choose to get sober and/or clean, you have to do the work and stay at it daily. You can never let up. I don't know about anyone else but I am an alcoholic and addict and will always be that for the rest of my life no matter what else happens in my life. When I forget that, I am in trouble with a capital T. But it is not just enough to know, I have to always do the work. It is a daily reprieve.

In the beginning, I flew through the steps, working them like it was a course in High School. LOL Once I was done, I asked my sponsor now what? He said, "You keep on working them everyday for the rest of your life."

This is one that I like:

A WOMAN approached her sponsor and asked: “What do I do when I finísh with the Steps?” And the sponsor replied: “Lie very, very still - because you’re dead.

It is easy to let up on the spiritual program of action and rest on our laurels. We are headed for trouble if we do, for alcohol is a subtle foe. We are not cured of alcoholism. What we really have is a daily reprieve contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition. Every day is a day when we must carry the vision of God's will into all of our activities. "How can I best serve Thee - Thy will (not mine) be done." These are thoughts which must go with us constantly. We can exercise our will power along this line all we wish. It is the proper use of the will. BB, p. 85

Thanks for letting me share.

[admin]

saved1 you are reading my mind. I just started putting together something on triggers this morning. :1:

Just posted that here http://www.dailyrecovery.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9706 . :)

[dwmoeller]

I'm going to take out my Big Book and reread the pages from your quotes when I get home from work.

[jonesg]

you just answered your own question i think.. :1:

Someone noticed! :wink:

[admin]

Someone noticed! :wink:

We be slow sometimes and then sometimes we be busy sharing our - uh - thoughts. :272:

[jonesg]

saved1 you are reading my mind. I just started putting together something on triggers this morning. :1:

My only trigger was called life.

The distinction that caught my attention between AA and the rest of the world is everyone was telling me to not drink, the cops, the courts, my family.

But AA takes a different tack, its implied in
'any scheme that seeks to shield the alcoholic is doomed to fail'

so AA isn't a shield, people try use it as such but thats why there are meetings which are little more than revolving doors.

Guarding against a known trigger is futile because alcoholism is "sentient", thats to say "it thinks independently" from the alcoholic who has it.
It will just find a different path.

My big book tell me if I'm not convinced whether I'm an alcoholic I can "step over to the nearest bar" and find out.

When I surrendered in step 3 I felt I was placed in a state of reprieve, temporary but long enough to safely work the next step.

On page 250 of "AA comes of age" ,
" a single surrender can have a stopping effect on drinking , but the ego has a tremendous capacity to rebuild itself".

When Bill lived with the Smith's before they wrote the big book, he and Dr Bob tried keeping alcoholics from drinking and came to realize it was the wrong approach. They quit chasing drunks because they learned it was far more effective to wait until they were good and bloody.

Not to say precautions should be cavalierly tossed to the wind, its a question whether trigger awarness is being used as a form of abstinence management or common sense and prudence whilst working through the steps.

[jonesg]

See I never knew that came from Rehab cause I have never been to rehab! The only rehab that I've ever acquired is through the Programs of Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous. I have heard it in meetings, but never understood it from being from the literature.

One thing I would like to add. Is what we hear a lot that is part of our opening. If you can't find it in the AA Big Book, you might want to be careful with how much truth is behind it. I think that is what is hurting our Programs here where I live. There is too much of stuff outside of AA in The Rooms. These things such as Literature that isn't AA approved, etc. violates the Program. In some aspects it is IMO what will cause the Recovery Rate of AA to be less. If we stuck with what was obtained in the Beginning we probably would see the recovery rate of AA rise.

I once heard a guy say that AA doesn't work. I said, "Yeah, it never worked for me cause I never really tried that hard to work "IT!"


I was steered away from rehab by my doctor but I've been in enough rehabs on 12th step calls to hear the stuff they teach, rehabs can be a hiding place for unrecovered alcoholics, they often work as "alcoholism counselors".

When I used to chair a regular meeting at the local rehab 2 couselors committed suicide. !

They had a habit of trying to re-direct the meeting into a form of group therapy, we told the director we were quitting the meetings because of the interference, a few months later they called us back, no AA groups would go there, thats how bad it was.

I had no compunction against pulling patients aside and telling them some of these "couselors" were insane. They were trying to keep anyone else from recovering.

[jonesg]

The solution? ... I think it boils down to just how 'open-minded' and how sick they really are ...


nor have we discussed just where and how the statistics are derived and who is it that's reporting them? ... (We are anonymous are we not?)



Love Ya'll and God Bless,:42:
Pappy

I look to the critics of AA for the ugly truth.
An enemy will often do me the favor of telling me what my freinds won't.

I've seen people in AA who are sicker than I was when I started into the steps, they have no intention of working the steps.
And I have to wonder who got to them first.

When Dr Bob was running the alcoholic ward with sister Ignastious they never allowed repeat customers into the ward because they watered the program down. They kept the newcomers from working ths steps.

Thats exactly what I've seen in todays rehabs with alcoholic couselors who are still sick.
I actually had one tell me the patients weren't ready for the steps. Sometimes I think I deal with evil itself.

[Pythonpappy]

I was steered away from rehab by my doctor but I've been in enough rehabs on 12th step calls to hear the stuff they teach, rehabs can be a hiding place for unrecovered alcoholics, they often work as "alcoholism counselors".

When I used to chair a regular meeting at the local rehab 2 couselors committed suicide. !

They had a habit of trying to re-direct the meeting into a form of group therapy, we told the director we were quitting the meetings because of the interference, a few months later they called us back, no AA groups would go there, thats how bad it was.

I had no compunction against pulling patients aside and telling them some of these "couselors" were insane. They were trying to keep anyone else from recovering.

Not all 'Rehabs' are the same ... there are good ones out there, but they must be sought after ...

[Pythonpappy]

I look to the critics of AA for the ugly truth.
An enemy will often do me the favor of telling me what my freinds won't.



Okay, I guess I'm confused, ... To start with, why on earth would anyone go looking for the 'ugly truth' where AA is concerned? (I would be looking for where AA excells and gives life and hope to those who have none) ... And for goodness sakes, I can't see any positive reason to seek information from someone known to be our critics ... If they are not one of us, then how could you put any value to what they tell you? ...

And your friends may just be saving you from wasting a lot of time needlessly trying to understand the weaknesses of the program ... Because, .......... get this ....... THERE AREN'T ANY!!! ... :170:


Question?, ... You seem to be extremely knowledgable in our AA history ... and you have some inspiring posts, but where is it you picked up this negative attitude toward AA that you would seek out the 'ugly truth' as you call it? ... AND why on earth would you share that stuff and NOT keep it to yourself? .... Do you really think that your being of service, when you're sharing this kind of stuff? .. Is this your way of inspiring Hope for others? ... Oh man, let me ask if you actually believe in God? and do you ever talk to Him? ... Have you taken certain pieces of the program that you like and then just forget the rest? ...

I've seen very few people berate our program and I'm here defending it for all it's goodness and life saving principles ...

Looking forward to your answers to the questions above!!!

[jonesg]

Okay, I guess I'm confused, ... To start with, why on earth would anyone go looking for the 'ugly truth' where AA is concerned? (I would be looking for where AA excells and gives life and hope to those who have none) ... And for goodness sakes, I can't see any positive reason to seek information from someone known to be our critics ... If they are not one of us, then how could you put any value to what they tell you? ...

And your friends may just be saving you from wasting a lot of time needlessly trying to understand the weaknesses of the program ... Because, .......... get this ....... THERE AREN'T ANY!!! ... :170:


Question?, ... You seem to be extremely knowledgable in our AA history ... and you have some inspiring posts, but where is it you picked up this negative attitude toward AA that you would seek out the 'ugly truth' as you call it? ... AND why on earth would you share that stuff and NOT keep it to yourself? .... Do you really think that your being of service, when you're sharing this kind of stuff? .. Is this your way of inspiring Hope for others? ... Oh man, let me ask if you actually believe in God? and do you ever talk to Him? ... Have you taken certain pieces of the program that you like and then just forget the rest? ...

I've seen very few people berate our program and I'm here defending it for all it's goodness and life saving principles ...

Looking forward to your answers to the questions above!!!

The truth is always of maximum value whether its good news or bad.
Theres nothing wrong with the 12 steps.
Are you fishing something from my post that doesn't exist.?

I turned my life over to God over 10 yrs ago and He never steers me wrong.

[admin]

In our belief any scheme of combating alcoholism which proposes to shield the sick man from temptation is doomed to failure. If the alcoholic tries to shield himself he may succeed for a time, but he usually winds up with a bigger explosion than ever. We have tried these methods. These attempts to do the impossible have always failed.

So our rule is not to avoid a place where there is drinking, if we have a legitimate reason for being there. That includes bars, nightclubs, dances, receptions, weddings, even plain ordinary whoopee parties. To a person who has had experience with an alcoholic, this may seem like tempting Providence, but it isn't.

You will note that we made an important qualification. Therefore, ask yourself on each occasion, "Have I any good social, business, or personal reason for going to this place? Or am I expecting to steal a little vicarious pleasure from the atmosphere of such places?" If you answer these questions satisfactorily, you need have no apprehension. Go or stay away, whichever seems best. But be sure you are on solid spiritual ground before you start and that your motive in going is thoroughly good. Do not think of what you will get out of the occasion. Think of what you can bring to it. But if you are shaky, you had better work with another alcoholic instead! pp. 101-102.

[Pythonpappy]

.

I read part of page 101 Tuesday at a noon meeting ... know it very well ...

[saved1]

Todays Reminder :cool:

In one sense, I have an obligation to members of every group, not only my own.
That duty is to observe and preserve principles and traditions.
The principles, for the individual are stated in the twelve steps.
The traditions, also Twelve, are for group guidance.
It is important to all,and to me personally, to know both the Steps and Traditions and protect them from Distortion and Dilution.
I will read them and try to apply them in both personal and group matters.

Tradition One: "Our common welfare should come first;personal progress for the greatest number depends on unity."
"It is not man's acts which disturb us-but our reaction to them. Take these away, and anger goes. No wrong act of another can bring shame on you.":D
(Marcus Aurelius)

(Share Perspective: One Day at a Time in Al-Anon.)

[Pythonpappy]

The truth is always of maximum value whether its good news or bad.
Theres nothing wrong with the 12 steps.
Are you fishing something from my post that doesn't exist.?

If the truth is always of maximum value, then why are we instructed to make amends to others EXCEPT when to do so would injure them or others? ... Is the truth you speak of at maximum value in this situation? ... Are we to think, by your description, that we should lay out the truth regardless of the outcome? ... I think it really comes to the reason we use the 'truth' ... The truth can be used for destroying others as well as for healing ... So I don't understand your reasoning ... I think it really comes down to our 'intent' ... Do we want to harm or heal with it ... I agree with step 9 ... and if you truly feel there's nothing wrong with the steps, then why are you contradicting yourself ... you can't have it both ways ...

... and there is no 'fishing' necessary, your post very clearly exhibits your way of thinking ... I wasn't looking for anything, just merely pointing out what you yourself brought to the table ...


God Bless,
Pappy

[jonesg]

We were talking about recovery rates, if you want to jump track into amends and imply thats the same, I can't help you with that.

[schell08122008]

Thanks for every ones posts on this topic. In the past I went through several rehabs..always ended up drunk again shortly after most of these. The only one I stayed sober from was the toughest one which was state run and literally took alcoholics and addicts scraped from the streets. It was in the depths of Chicago in the shadows of the projects. That's the most real place I began to see my disease..I had a low bottom..during my time there I watched those who did the work..accepted the discipline and the new way of living..I watched those who refused to surrender their disease and continued to act the lifestyle of addiction..they stole from other womens rooms, napped during meetings and didn't do the "homework", they wouldn't get honest. So yes there are some good rehabs out there..for me it was the down to the core one that let me begin a lifestyle of recovery. Why are the recovery rates so low today? I believe it's those that come to the program, wishing for an instant fix, while the program requires actually WORKING the steps, some sponsors have gotten softer..sponsees are directed to call or use email to "talk" with their sponsor, instead of f2f sponsorship..during which they are lead through the first 164 pages of the BB..working the steps as set out in the Book. Writing pen to paper the fourth step, even writing out daily inventories. We do so much electronically today, but when we think about it Bill and Dr Bob didn't have this available to them...recovery is tough..change is tough...Today, if we don't find that instant fix to our problems (and we are used to instant everything nowadays) we let the steps go, do things our own way..and inevidently get drunk. The program does not teach instant fixes..it is work...hard work which will produce a close look at ourselves. I have to do the work of the program in order to maintain recovery on a daily basis. I didn't like the work at first..I rebelled..so I would relapse, when I stopped working the program I relapsed..it wasn't until I got down to basics and worked..each step thoroughly that I was able to stay sober. Peace Schell

[dwmoeller]

Not all 'Rehabs' are the same ... there are good ones out there, but they must be sought after ...

The rehab that I went to saved my life.....it gave me a good start to my journey of sobriety

[Mountainman]

Today, if we don't find that instant fix to our problems (and we are used to instant everything nowadays)

I also hear this much from my wife

she is a school teacher
she thinks that possibly the electronic games kids play add to the problem
the kids are wound for sound and do not seem happy with anything
that takes a little hard work and time to get
they want it right now

ok I admit
I fall into this too at times

but -- I do not play the electronic games
I'am surprized we don't have more people coming to this site
sharing about this common today addiction

a little girl was crying much in my wifes classroom the other day
my wife asked her "what was going on"
the poor little thing said that "she was feeling much rejection"
my wife dug deeper
she said "that her father does not spend much time with her"
my wife asked her why
she said "that he is usually in his room alone

playing electronic football games"


yes -- the devil has yet another potent tool !!!

MB

[saved1]

Let's get to the heart of the matter, caution, for those seeking the easier softer way this is a long article that requires insight and thought may not be subtable for the closed minded. :281:
(SHARE-PERSPECTIVE)

Another type of email that we keep receiving on a very regular basis is the exact title of this article – why do some Christians behave so badly?
If we are new creations in Jesus Christ as a result of being saved and born again through His shed blood, and we now have the Holy Spirit literally living on the inside of us to help guide, teach, convict, empower, and sanctify us in this life, then how can so many Christians be getting into so much off-the-cuff, bad behavior with the Lord?
Many of these types of bad-behaving Christians are also chasing many nonbelievers away from the Lord instead of leading them to Him as a result of them making very bad representatives for our Lord. Many nonbelievers are wrongly judging our God by our actions, words, and deeds – and when they see some Christians behaving very badly in their marriages, in their work places, and in their social environments, they will shy away from checking what our faith is really all about. And this is all due to the hypocritical bad behavior of so many Christians who are not being properly sanctified by the Lord.
What I am talking about in this article is not every minor flaw and imperfection we all have in our personalities. We all have our rough edges that need to be smoothed out and cleaned up by the Lord. What I am talking about is behavior that would be considered off-the-cuff and pushing the envelope with the Lord. This kind of bad behavior is what many Christians consider to be unacceptable in the eyes of God since this kind of behavior is going so blatantly against His ways of living for us in this life.
Here were some of the things many people were pointing out to us in the emails we have received on this topic. I have also seen a lot of this kind of activity occur myself in the business world in which I worked in for 30 years.

Extreme Verbal Abuse :37:
Physical Abuse :252:
Sexual Abuse :twisted:
Very Harsh, Mean, Judgmental, Critical, Demeaning Spirits :277:
Very Prideful, Arrogant, Know-It-All Attitudes :270:
Very Controlling and Manipulating Spirits :2Poking:
Willing to Spread False Rumors and Malicious Gossip :238:
Very Sexually Promiscuous Type Lifestyles :kiss:
Various Types of Criminal Activities :10hitting:

Every time we receive these types of emails, people keep asking us the same question over and over again. How can so many Christians behave like this when they have been born again and have the Holy Spirit literally living on the inside of them? If it is the job of the Holy Spirit to convict and straighten out this kind of bad behavior, then why is He not doing this more with these kinds of bad-behaving Christians?
Many of these bad-behaving Christians are regularly attending their local churches. Many of them have been brought up in good Christian homes. But yet somewhere along the line some of this kind of bad behavior starts manifesting in their personalities, and instead of getting it quickly dealt with and taken out, it just keeps getting worse until they finally develop strongholds with this kind of bad behavior getting solidly ingrained in their personalities. :15:
I know you all have come across other Christians who are engaging in this kind of unacceptable behavior with the Lord. Some of you have tried to talk to and reason with these people, but to no avail. Many of them are full of so much pride, they will never be able to admit to anyone, including God Himself that they have anything wrong with them. The Bible tells us that pride will come before the fall, and the reason for this is because pride will blind you and prevent you from being able to see the truth on what is wrong with you.
As a result, these kinds of Christians will never accept any kind of constructive, godly criticism from anyone, including God Himself. This is why the Holy Spirit is not moving on some of these people, because they would not be open to receiving His conviction and truth in the first place.:281:
With many of these people still attending church, and with many of them having already been brought up in good Christian homes, then why is this happening? If they have been brought up in the Bible and all the ways of our Lord, then how can they justify this kind of bad behavior when the Bible is so blatantly pointing out to them that this kind of bad behavior is totally unacceptable in the eyes of God?
After watching quite a few of these bad-behaving Christians myself in the work place, in their marriages, and in their social environments, I have come to the conclusion that there are 5 main reasons why these people are not changing for the better in their walks with the Lord.
Here are the 5 main reasons, and then I will talk about each one of them under the captions below so you do not let this kind of bad behavior bother you, upset you, distract you, or knock you off course with what God is wanting to do with your life in the divine plan He has set up for you.
They Have Not Established a True, Good, Personal Relationship With the Lord
They Are Not Operating in a True Full Surrender With the Lord
They Are Not Reading and Studying Enough From the Bible
They Are Not Being Properly Sanctified by the Holy Spirit
Some of Them Will Have Demons Attached to Them
Years ago when I found out that the Bible was the real Word of God to all of us, I literally tore into it so I could find out exactly how God was wanting us to live in this life for Him. And as I studied and started to put things together, there were several things that were jumping off the pages at me as to what God would be looking for from each one of us.
This is one of the main reasons my brother and I wanted to put this kind of website together, to show people what some of these basic areas were so they would then know what to try and develop with the Lord. And some of those main areas are exactly what some of these bad-behaving Christians are not doing with the Lord.
Now I will go into each one of these 5 areas under the captions below so you can at least have an understanding as to why some Christians are not spiritually growing and changing as they should in the Lord.
1. They Have Not Established a True, Good, Personal Relationship With the Lord

The first major thing that will jump out at you when you study the Bible from cover to cover is that God is calling each man and each woman He has ever created to come into intimate fellowship with Him. In other words, God wants to establish a good, strong, intimate, personal, love relationship with each person He has created.
The fact that God the Father would send down His only and only begotten Son Jesus Christ down to our earth to go through the most bloody, barbaric, and brutal death known to mankind when He came down here, all just to be able to get us back to Himself, shows us more than anything else how much God and Jesus really do love all of us. As such, God now wants to take this scenario one step further. He wants each one of us to press in and draw close to Him so we can start to establish this kind of good, strong, intimate, personal relationship with Him.
What I have found with some of these bad-behaving Christians is that they may say they love Jesus and have a very good relationship established with Him, but their bad actions are not lining up with what they are telling everyone else with their mouths. In other words, they are talking the talk, but they are not really walking the walk.
No sooner do they get out of church and they are back home verbally and physically abusing their spouses and children at home. They are back out continuing to have affairs behind their spouse’s back. They are continuing to cause trouble at work by spreading false rumors and malicious gossip on some of their fellow workers.
If these people really had a good, close, intimate, personal relationship with the Lord, then the Lord would also be very close to them. And if God is very close to them, then He would be convicting and correcting them very quickly when they start manifesting this kind of unacceptable bad behavior – just like good parents will quickly correct a child who is starting to do some bad things that would be considered unacceptable.
The fact that God is not trying to correct some of these people shows me one of two things:
One, He has either tried to correct them before, but these people are not accepting His constructive criticism and conviction because they do not want to admit they have anything wrong with them in the first place.
Or two, He cannot even begin to reach them in the first place because they will not be open to receiving any kind of correction and conviction from Him because they already have too much pride operating in them.
But in either event, this shows they may not really have that close of a relationship with the Lord. If they really did, there is no way they would be acting out with these kinds of bad behaviors.
If you really want to spiritually grow in the Lord and be truly sanctified by the power of His Holy Spirit, then the first step is that you have to establish a very good personal relationship with the Lord. This is the absolute first step for every single Christian. Many Christians have not established good personal relationships with the Lord for various reasons and as a result, there is very little if any true spiritual growth occurring in their lives.
Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. Just like the branches draw their life from the vine, we have to draw our life from Jesus. And the very first step into being able to draw Jesus’ divine life into us is by establishing a good, close, personal relationship with Him. There is no other way. There are no other shortcuts you can take to achieve true spiritual growth in this life. And many of these bad-behaving Christians are missing this very first important step.
2. They Are Not Operating in a True Full Surrender With the Lord

Another major reason why many of these bad-behaving Christians are so out of control with their fleshly actions is that they are not walking in a true full surrender with the Lord.
As we have already explained in our detailed article titled, “The Full Surrender,” the second thing that God is going to want from you is for you to come into a full and complete surrender of your entire life so He is fully free to guide you into the divine destiny that He already has set up for your life.
Unless you first come into this full surrender with God, He is not going to be working full force in your life to lead it into the specific directions He will want it to go in. And if God is not working full force in your life, then you may not make much spiritual growth in Him because the Holy Spirit is also not working with you full force on the inside.
If you want to get God to start moving full force in every area of your life, then you have to make a complete and full surrender of every part of your being and every part of your life over to Him. Again, this is all fully explained to you in our article titled, “The Full Surrender.”
Many of these bad-behaving Christians are not walking in a true full surrender because they do not want anyone telling them how to run their lives, which will include God Almighty Himself. They know if they enter into this full surrender, that God will be coming after a lot of their bad behavior patterns, and many of them do not want to give up this kind of bad behavior since they are actually feeding off it.
Christians who are out living very sexually promiscuous lifestyles are receiving a certain amount of sexual gratification from it. They know what they are doing is wrong in the eyes of God, but yet they still keep on repeating the same kind of behavior over and over again because of the sexual pleasure and gratification it is giving to them.
So the second main reason these Christians are not making any improvements in their bad behaviors is because they are not walking in a true full surrender with the Lord.
If they were walking in a true full surrender, then God would be leading them through the Holy Spirit. And if they were being properly led by the Holy Spirit, then there is no way they could continue to stay in these bad behavior patterns, as the Holy Spirit would be leading them right out of it.
3. They Are Not Reading and Studying Enough From the Bible

Once I found out years ago how powerful and divine the Bible really was, I became very surprised as to how many Christians were not regularly feeding off it to any significant degree. And again, this is one of the main reasons we have started up this kind of website, to show people how much incredible working knowledge there is in the Bible, and how this divine knowledge and revelation can literally change your whole life for the better.
One of the things I have found out about the Holy Spirit is that He will become very active in your life if you will spend some kind of regular quality time in the Bible trying to learn as much as you can. The Holy Spirit needs something to work with in order to cause any kind of true spiritual growth to occur in your life and that something is knowledge. And the knowledge that He needs to work with is knowledge that comes straight from the Bible.
If you want to spiritually grow in this life beyond what you ever thought was possible, then you have to read and feed from the only and only source that will give you the kind of knowledge that will cause this kind of spiritual growth to occur in the first place.
Bottom line – if you do not read and study from the Bible on any kind of regular basis, then the Holy Spirit will not have anything to work with to change you into the kind of person that God wants you to become in Him.
I have had quite a few Christians tell me over the years they did not need to read the Bible, as the church they were going to was giving them everything they would need to spiritually grow in this life. Needless to say, many of them were in one mess after another because they did not have enough of the Word in them to keep them out of trouble, as their pastors and priests could only cover so much in a once-per-week sermon.
Many of the bad-behaving Christians I have met in my life had very little Bible knowledge in them. And the ones who did, they were just flat out refusing to listen to and obey God with what He was telling them to do through His Word.
You can read the Word all day long, but if you do not seek to fully understand what God is telling you, and then seek to implement these divine truths into your daily walk with Him, then nothing is ever going to happen and you will make very little if any true spiritual growth in this life. The truth can only set you free and make you into a better person only if you know what these divine truths are, and then get these divine truths worked into your daily life with the help of the Holy Spirit.
So the third main reason many of these Christians are behaving so badly is because they have either not spent much time reading from the one Book that can give them the knowledge that will change them for the better – or they have read from the Bible, but they are flat out refusing to obey what God is telling them to do through His Word because they do not want anyone telling them what to do or how to live their lives once they are outside the four walls of their churches.
4. They Are Not Being Properly Sanctified by the Holy Spirit

If there is one major secret that really jumped out at me once I started to study the Bible, it was in the area of sanctification.
In the Sanctification section of our site, we have an article titled, “Sanctification.” In this article, we give you all of the main verses from the Bible to show you that this is really something big that God wants to do with each one of us.
Once we become saved and born again through Jesus Christ, that is just the beginning. Once we accept Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior, we will immediately receive the Holy Spirit. He will literally come on the inside of us to take up residence in our human spirits. And once the Holy Spirit is on the inside of us, one of the greatest things God wants to do with each one of us is to sanctify us, to make us into a better and more holy people. He wants to set us apart and consecrate us unto Himself. He wants to transform us into the express image of His Son Jesus.
However, this sanctification process is a two way street. God needs your full consent and full cooperation before He will begin this type of deeper work within you. The Holy Spirit will be the One to sanctify you to the degree that God would really like to get you to in this life. But this is something that you will really have to want, as God highly respects your free will in this area and He will not push this on you unless you really want Him to do this with you.
If there is one major reason why some Christians are not changing for the better and making much spiritual growth in their lives, it has to be because they have never entered into a true sanctification process with the Lord.
Unless you get into the Bible to seek out the knowledge that will change you for the better, and then work with the Holy Spirit and His divine power to get these divine truths worked into your mindset and personality, then nothing is ever going to happen in your spiritual life with the Lord.
If the Holy Spirit starts to transmit and impart His divine love into your personality as one of His 9 fruits, but you refuse to operate on that love with your words, actions, and deeds to others, then nothing is ever going to happen.
If the Holy Spirit starts to impart His self-control in you as one of His 9 fruits so you will have His power to clean up your foul speech and the way you talk to others, and you refuse to change the way you speak to others, then again, nothing is ever going to happen and you will never change into the kind of saint God wants you to become in Him.
In our article titled, “Sanctification,” we give you a good sample prayer that you can use to get you into this realm with God, along with some pointers as to what to look out for once the Lord starts to do this kind of deeper work within you.
Again, I cannot shout out this particular secret loud enough. It is is the Word and the Spirit working together that will change you into the kind of saint that God wants you to become in Him in this life.
Seek after the knowledge you will need to change for the better from the Bible, and then work with the Holy Spirit and His divine power on the inside of you, and then you will change for the better – and it can happen right here in this life to some appreciable degree.
Every single, bad-behaving Christian I have met in my life has not entered into a true sanctification process with the Lord. And if they have not entered into a true sanctification process with the Lord, then the Holy Spirit is not going to be working with them on the inside to clean them up. And they will thus stay stuck right where they are at, never having the inner strength on their own to change themselves for the better. And from there, they will just keep repeating their same bad behaviors, contaminating everyone around them with their toxic personality qualities.
5. Some of Them Will Have Demons Attached to Them

As a result of some of these bad behaviors being more on the extreme side, some of these people will end up drawing demons after them. And once the demons have attached to them, they will then try to make these bad behaviors even worse than what they already were.
Christians who are living in very sexually promiscuous type lifestyles can easily draw demons of lust and perversion. And once these kinds of nasty and foul demons attach to them, they will then have a harder time of trying to break away from it. And from there, they may need a full scale deliverance once the demons have been attached to them long enough and have become solidly entrenched in their lives.
Again, as we have said in many of the articles in our Spiritual Warfare section, demons cannot make you do anything against your own free will. They can plant their evil thoughts and suggestions in your mind, and also give you the desire and compulsion to want to do their evil bidding, but each person can still resist them and not act out on their evil suggestions.
Just because a demon is trying to get you to commit fornication does not mean you have to do it. God held Adam and Eve totally accountable for eating the fruit off the one tree He told them to stay away from. Even though it was the devil who tempted and persuaded them to do it, they still had their own free wills and they both could have easily said no to the devil. As a result, God held them both totally accountable and He will do the same with each one of us.
For the most part, Christians who are acting out with these bad behaviors are not going to be able to use the excuse that the devil made them do it once they appear before Jesus at His Judgment Seat in heaven. They will have to answer to the Lord for everything they have said and done in this life, all of the good with all of the bad. And the excuse that the devil made them do it is not going to be washing with the Lord on most of these bad actions and behaviors.
CONCLUSION

I will end this article with three thoughts.
1. When it comes to Christians who are acting out with some of the above bad behaviors, you can classify them into one of two groups. One is the group that is full of so much pride and arrogance, they will never accept any kind of constructive criticism from either God Himself, or any other Christians God may send across their paths to try and help get them straightened out.
They are bound up in their own tunnel vision and they do not see they are doing anything wrong, even though all of the above bad behaviors are going directly against God and His Word. They have already found enough reasons to justify this kind of bad behavior and that is why many of them will never change throughout their entire lives.
2. Then you have the second group. This group does realize that what they are doing is wrong, but they have been behaving like this for so long, they no longer have the will power to change themselves for the better. This bad behavior has now become a mental and emotional stronghold, and they will now need the power of the Holy Spirit to get this bad behavior broken off their backs and taken out of their personalities.
To those of you who are in this second group, realize that there is nothing that our all-powerful God cannot do. If God was able to change and turn the apostle Paul, then He can change and turn anyone else as well, no matter how bad your behaviors have been over the years.
If you have been in these bad behavior patterns for a long time, and you have not been able to get them worked out of your personality, we can recommend three very good articles for you so you can see how to get God to move on your behalf. God will work through the power of the Holy Spirit on the inside of you to take out these bad behaviors, but it will really help if you knew what to do on your end to help facilitate this kind of a deliverance.
Please read these three articles, as they will each give you the steps you will need to take with the Lord before He will move full force to clean you up on the inside:
The Full Surrender
Sanctification
God Will Help You With Your Sin Areas
The last article will show you how God will roll up His sleeves and get right down there in the trenches with you to pull you out of these bad behaviors. You can be totally set free from these bad behaviors if you will realize they are bad and unacceptable in the eyes of God in the first place – and then be willing to work with the Lord for an actual deliverance.
3. To those of you who are living and/or working with any bad-behaving Christians, the first thing we would recommend is to see if they would be open to receiving any kind of counseling from the church you go to if they are not open to listening to you.
If your spouse is out of control with how they are acting and behaving, sometimes they will be open to working with a good Christian counselor if they are remorseful and repentant enough and know they have some problems that need to be dealt with.
However, if you are dealing with a bad-behaving Christian who is the first type mentioned above where they are never wrong and would never be open to any receiving kind of good Christian counseling, then all you can do is keep praying to God that He make a very heavy move on them. Sometimes it will take God making a very heavy move on them like He did with the apostle Paul before they will be able to see the errors of their ways.
Some of these people will literally need to be knocked off their high horses by God Himself before they will be able to see how wrong their behaviors have been over all of the years, and how they have severely mistreated all those around them. And again, if God can knock the apostle Paul to the ground and change and turn him for the better, then He can also do the same thing with every single, bad-behaving Christian.
Your job is to pray for these people behind the scenes, as God is going to be the only One who will be able to reach them and change them.
In the meantime, if you are living very close to a bad-behaving Christian, do not let their bad behaviors and actions stop you or deter you from progressing further on in the divine call and plan that God has set up for your life. Do not let their threats and condescending put-downs knock you off the path that God has set up for your life.
Realize why these people are the way they are, and then get on with the rest of your life and fully complete your divine destiny for the Lord. Sooner or later, God will be dealing with all of them on the trouble and chaos they have inflicted on all those around them.
Professional athletes have a very common saying that helps to keep them focused and on their game, and that saying is – “KEEP YOUR EYES ON THE BALL.”
The ball is Jesus and the perfect plan that He has set up for your life. Keep your eyes on Jesus and the perfect plan that He wants you to be walking in on a daily basis, and everything else will eventually be taken care of by Him, including any bad-behaving Christians you may be living with or working with.

[jonesg]

Let's get to the heart of the matter, caution, for those seeking the easier softer way this is a long article that requires insight and thought may not be subtable for the closed minded. :281:
(SHARE-PERSPECTIVE)

Can you share your experience strength and hope as it relates to the dismal recovery rates in todays AA.

[saved1]

There is a solution. :281:
http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt2.pdf

We Agnostics
http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt4.pdf

How It Works :cool:
http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt5.pdf

Into Action
http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt6.pdf

Working With Others :idea:
http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt7.pdf

A Vision For You :23:
http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt11.pdf

How Forty-Two Alcoholics Recovered From Their Malady :mrs_salut:
http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_personalstories.cfm

The Twelve Steps Illustrated. :question:
http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-55_twelvestepsillustrated.pdf

THE 12 STUMBLES.:rolleyes:
1. We admitted we were powerless over nothing, that we could manage our lives perfectly and those of anyone else who would allow us.

2. Came to believe there was no power greater than ourselves and that the rest of the world was insane.

3. Made a decision to have our loved ones and friends turn their lives over to our care, even thought they didn’t understand us.

4. Made a searching moral and immoral inventory of everyone we knew.

5. Admitted to the whole word the exact nature of everyone else’s wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to make everyone else stand up and do right.

7. Demanded that others shape up or ship out.

8. Made a list of all personal who had harmed us, and become willing to any lengths to get even with them all.

9. Took direct revenge on such people, whenever possible, except when to do so would cost us our lives, or at the very least, a jail sentence.

10. Continued to take inventory of others and when they were wrong promptly and repeatedly told them about it.

11. Sought through complaining and nagging to improve our relationships with others, as we couldn’t understand why everyone wouldn’t always do things our way.

12. Having had a complete emotional, physical and spiritual breakdown as a result of these stumbles, we tried to blame it on others and to get sympathy and pity in all our affairs.

WE CANT STOP HERE WERE ONLY HALF WAY HOME! :cool:

I begin to dislike AA conversation or company…

I willfully stay away from meetings….

I’m beginning to take another person’s inventory instead of my own…

I’m more afraid of being known as an AA member than as a drunk…

I begin to remember the Good Times I had drinking and overlook the bad times…

I condemn in others, that which I tolerate in Myself…

I say I forgive but I don’t forget…

I shrink from Self-Examination…

NEED MORE? NOT COMPLETE ? HERE ARE SOME OPTIONAL PHRASES. :cry:

I am not what I ought to be.
I am not what I want to be.
I am not what I hope to be.
But still, I am not what I used to be.
I am what I am..

A.A.'s Greatest Danger - Rigidity :blush:
1986 GENERAL SERVICE CONFERENCE CLOSING TALK
by Bob Pearson (SHARE PERSPECTIVE)

At the closing brunch on Saturday morning, Bob Pearson (G.S.O. senior adviser), who was retiring, gave a powerful and inspiring closing talk (excerpted below) to the 36th Conference.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is my 18th General Service Conference - the first two as a director of the Grapevine and A.A.W.S., followed by four as a general service trustee. In 1972, I rotated out completely, only to be called back two years later as general manager of G.S.O., the service job I held until late 1984. Since the 1985 International Convention, of course, I have been senior adviser. This is also my last Conference, so this is an emotionally charged experience.

I wish I had time to express my thanks to everyone to whom I am indebted for my sobriety and for the joyous life with which I have been blessed for the past nearly 25 years. But since this is obviously impossible, I will fall back on the Arab saying that Bill quoted in his last message, "I thank you for your lives." For without your lives, I most certainly would have no life at all, much less the incredibly rich life I have enjoyed.

Let me offer my thoughts about A.A.'s future.:cool: I have no truck with those bleeding deacons who decry every change and view the state of the Fellowship with pessimism and alarm.:twisted: On the contrary, from my nearly quarter-century's perspective, I see A.A. as larger, healthier, more dynamic, faster growing, more global, more service-minded, more back-to-basics, and more spiritual - by far - :14:than when I came through the doors of my first meeting in Greenwich, Connecticut, just one year after the famous Long Beach Convention. A.A. has flourished beyond the wildest dreams of founding members, though perhaps not of Bill himself, for he was truly visionary.

I echo those who feel that if this Fellowship ever falters or fails, it will not be because of any outside cause. No, it will not be because of:

treatment centers or
professionals in the field, or
non-Conference-approved literature, or
young people, or
the dually-addicted, or even
the "druggies" trying to come to our closed meetings.
If we stick close to our Traditions, Concepts, and Warranties, and if we keep an open mind and an open heart, we can deal with these and any other problems that we have or ever will have. If we ever falter and fail, it will be simply because of us. It will be because we can't control our own egos or get along well enough with each other. It will be because we have too much fear and rigidity and not enough trust and common sense.

If you were to ask me what is the greatest danger facing A.A. today, I would have to answer:
*the growing rigidity;
:cool:*the increasing demand for absolute answers to nit-picking questions; :D
*pressure for G.S.O. to "enforce" our Traditions;
*screening alcoholics at closed meetings;
*prohibiting non-Conference-approved literature, i.e., "banning books";
*laying more and more rules on groups and members.

And in this trend toward rigidity, we are drifting farther and farther away from our co-founders. Bill, in particular, must be spinning in his grave, for he was perhaps the most permissive person I ever met.

Bob Pearson (senior adviser)

I believe that covers it for now! :282:

[jonesg]

Experience strength and hope can't be copy and pasted.

[saved1]

Nor avoided or obtained through tactics.:D Your point being? :cool: