SLOGANS

[Willard]

OK, here we go with a question on bogus slogans often heard in meetings.
According to M-W Online "bogus" is defined as not genuine (a synonym is, surprise: counterfeit)

Let's try this one for starters - is this bogus or genuine: "There's no wrong way to do the steps"?

[WolfM]

Dear Willard,

Then I guess the first thing we need to do is define "wrong".
Does it mean not right? Improper? Not correct?
By this I mean, when someone says there is no wrong way to do the steps, do they mean, you can do them in any sequence that you like? Does it mean as long as you get them done, the ends justifies the means?
I beleive the steps should be done in the numerical order they are placed. I beleive that they should be done with a sponsor. I believe that they should be done right out of the Big Book.
However, I did not do them perfectly the first time (the 4th and 5th) otherwise I would not have to do them over again.
What do you think is meant by "there is no wrong way to do the steps"?

[Willard]

Good question. Of the several definitions for "wrong" I am using the adjective. Of the several there, I use: not according to truth or facts, or incorrect

I compare that to "right", as in "the right way to do the steps". Again as an adjective: agreeable to a standard b : conforming to facts or truth , or correct

To restate: "There is no incorrect way to do the steps".? Bogus, or not?

I believe there is no incorrect way to do the steps. That would imply there's only one wrong way. To the contrary, I think there's as many wrong ways as there are opinions. So, to avoid misunderstanding and interpretation, why not do it the way it's described in the BB?

There are hundreds of wrong ways, maybe thousands- maybe even a gazillion! :D

I did steps 1-9 once. I see no need to do them again - why would I?

[Willard]

Finally! Someone else sees my perfection. Excuse me for a moment................

I had to go take a look in the mirror. I love admiring my perfect perfection as often as possible. Yes, it's good being me - exceedingly good. Now, as soon as everyone else comes to your realization, everything will be as it should. I don't expect that to happen anytime soon - strange as it seems, some just don't see it! Go figure.

Reminds me of those who must be daily reminded that they are 1] still alcoholics. After that's admitted what happens? Did they forget? That they must constantly reinforce what they believe. How many times must one? 2]? "come to believe"? And they frequently 3] make a decision to do what they decided the preceding day. Unless I quit every afternoon, I don't get a new employer every day. Do they? I took the action of the first nine steps, not work them. The effect was dramatic, and permanent, so long as 10-12 are exercised as instructed.

Do them as often as you want. I made real decisions, came to real conclusions and took effective action - as directed in the BB. I don't need the repitition - I've recovered - as advertised.

As to 4-9, doesn't the tenth step recapitulate them? Well, yes! I believe it does. Hmmmm, then why do 1-9 repeatedly?....... I know!....... They must not be perfect - like me. Excuse me for a moment.......

[angussdundee]

" The only urgent thing is that we make a beginning, and keep trying". 12x12.

I once bumped into a very tearful lady at a meeting one evening, "I have done the steps but I have slipped. What is the point of doing them again? They didn't work last time". I said something like this to her in the hope that it would help her, and I stick by it to-day;
The steps are enabling steps, they enable us to stay sober but they do not compel us to stay sober. If we want to drink, we will. The usual reason is that we get cocky, and stop practicing the principles of the steps, we stop attending meetings, doing without a sponsor, being dishonest, resentfull and fearful etc. The fact that we slip does not change the truth. For us, there is NO other way to get well. The reason we drank is not important, just as the reason we became alcoholic in the first place is not important; we do it right this time. We start practicing the principles of the program again as soon as possible.
I have seen that lady since and that is exactly what she did do and she has achieved sobriety again and is happy to-day.

anguss.

[vegyman]

Page 60
Many of us exclaimed, "What an order! I can't go
through with it." Do not be discouraged. No one among
us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence
to these principles. We are not saints. The point
is, that we are willing to grow along spiritual lines. The
principles we have set down are guides to progress. We
claim spiritual progress rather than spiritual perfection.


Our description of the alcoholic, the chapter to the
agnostic, and our personal adventure before and after
make clear three pertinent ideas:
(a) That we were alcoholic and could not manage our
own lives.
(b) That probably no human power could have relieved
our alcoholism.
(c) That God could and would if He were sought.


Being convinced, we were at Step Three, which is that
we decided to turn our will and our life over to God as
we understood Him.



No one among
us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence
to these principles. We are not saints. The point
is, that we are willing to grow along spiritual lines. The
principles we have set down are guides to progress. We
claim spiritual progress rather than spiritual perfection.

I see this as a warning even before we start step 3. No one among
us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence
to these principles. We grow along spiritual lines! Progress and not Perfection!

But I guess there's no wrong way to do the steps. LOL.

[Willard]

"I see this as a warning ..." I don't.

" The only urgent thing is that we make a beginning, and keep trying". 12x12. Why even bother with the BB?

"Let's toss out step seven.... " Now, see, I didn't suggest tossing them out. Why would we do that? There are so many who confuse "practice these principles" with "repeatedly take the steps". That would leave them with nothing to do!

There is no wrong way to do the steps. As I noted there are an infinite number of wrong ways. However, do 1-9 right (not necessarily perfect) - once. All that's required after that is 10-12 daily.

Now please, outside opinion and the 12x12, where does it speak to reapeated action of the steps? Take the action of the steps every day if you like. But, please, don't tell me that's part of the program - cause it's not.

[vegyman]

Now please, outside opinion and the 12x12, where does it speak to reapeated action of the steps? Take the action of the steps every day if you like. But, please, don't tell me that's part of the program - cause it's not.


Where does it say that in the BigBook? Willard.

Once I started living the steps, I did them automaticlly with out concience thought of doing them, but I am still doing them.

Example; When you leave the house are you naked? or are you clothed without concience thought of getting dressed? I would have to look at my shirt to tell you what color it is on any given day, but I do have a shirt on.

[Carol87]

Now please, outside opinion and the 12x12, where does it speak to reapeated action of the steps? Take the action of the steps every day if you like. But, please, don't tell me that's part of the program - cause it's not.


Please don't speak for me!!? ?;)? ? Doing the steps on a daily basis is a part of MY recovery program.? ?8)? ?It is what keeps me principled [without being perfect!].? ?But as others have said, that is JMHO.

For me, AA is the synthesis of all of the philosophy I've ever read, all of the positive, good philosophy, all of it based on love. I have seen that there is only one law, the law of love, and there are only two sins; the first is to interfere with the growth of another human being, and the second is to interfere with one's own growth.

c. 1976 AAWS, Alcoholics Anonymous (Third Edition), p. 542With permission, Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc.

[Willard]

Carol, didn't know I was speaking for you. You can have YOUR program of recovery if you like, but it's not THE program of recovery. (See below.) This reference to "the law of love" is new age religion. Worship as you please, but is it really a part of AA recovery? I think not. It's a story in the back of the book!!!! It carries the same weight as the guy who said "Acceptance is the answer to all my problems". The amount of that weight? ZERO.

Charlie, I never said "Do not repeat these steps" was in the book. C'mon now, it doesn't say either to repeat, or not.? If it takes doing them every day for you - or anyone else - I'm sure you will. But, why do you find it necessary?

vegyman, right here, on page 59: "Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a
program of recovery: (the steps follow)". It's the only recovery program listed anywhere in the BB. And, the only one promoted by AA. That is, unless there's one in the stories or some of the other literature you all reference as "authority". There is one program: the twelve steps. There is one correct way to take the action of those steps. There is no requirement or instruction or suggestion to do 1-9 more than once. - concious or otherwise.

Hey, I didn't write this book, but I think I'm the only one who's not selectively reading it.

If you have long term sobriety,? what you believe or what you do to keep sober is, as Carol noted, YOUR program. Whatever potpourri of philosophy and/or other components works for you is your business. In my case THE program is all I have.

My obligation isn't to the indoctrinated acolytes, but to the newcomer who's reading these forums (without comment) or sitting quietly in meetings. They are the ones who need to know that the way to permanent sobriety is the program - PERIOD. All the support, all the philosophy, all the opinion, all the smarmy sentimentality, all the socialization, all the meetings and all the fellowship will not get or keep you sober! If you want contented, long term sobriety the authors of the BB gave us this in the foreward to the first edition "To show other alcoholicsprecisely how we recovered is the main purpose of this book". That hasn't changed. Don't believe me? Read it yourself - it will save your life.


As I mentioned in another forum, I don't complicate, or simplify. The program is what it is.

I know it will break your collective hearts to know I must go back to work tomorrow. I won't be able to spend as much time here as I did today. But....., I'll be around.

[Patsyd1]

Hey Willard,

You sound so familiar.? I think we have seen you here before,? just under different name?


"Hey, I didn't write this book, but I think I'm the only one who's not selectively reading it."


As Bill Sees It.....Page 146


"Do as I Do . . ."


Perhaps more often than we think, we make no contact at depth with alcoholics who are suffering the dilemma of no faith.

Certainly none are more sensitive to spiritual cocksureness, pride, and aggression than they are. I'm sure this is something we too often forget.

In A.A.'s first years, I all but ruined the whole undertaking with this sort of unconscious arrogance. God as I understood Him had to be for everybody. Sometimes my aggression was subtle and sometimes it was crude. But either way it was damaging - perhaps fatally so - to numbers of nonbelievers.

Of course this sort of thing isn't confined to Twelfth Step work. It is very apt to leak out into our relations with everybody. Even now, I catch myself chanting that same old barrier-building refrain: "Do as I do, believe as I do - or else!"

GRAPEVINE, APRIL 1961

Copyright?1967 Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc.

[Patsyd1]

Charlie shared:

To direct the newcomer not to experience the dogma (as you call it) of the various groups is to do nothing more than promote the specific dogma of an individual with a single approach to sobriety - it removes the choices that we all have to learn to make. The newcomer should be exposed to all kinds of groups (discussion, step study, BB Study, Traditions, etc.) and let them find their comfort zone and then the journey begins.


Thanks Charlie, that is so true ;D

[Willard]

I asked the IRS to show me, in CFR Title 26, where I was obligated as an American citizen to pay federal income taxes. I asked them that in 1997. So far, the only answer they've provided - and I'm not making this up - is this:
"Sir, we don't go by the law , we go by our regulations." It seems that's much the case here.

Patsy, and apparently others, seem to think my position is "my way, or the highway." Am I being unreasonable, or is what I'm saying so uncomfortable it causes these responses? Is what I promote "my way" or is it what's written?

If I'm interpreting - tell me how. If the message is flawed - explain why.

Folks, alcoholism is a serious disease. We all acknowledge that. What then is the solution? If I am beyond human aid, how many meetings, with how many sincere, helpful, concerned, unselfish, sympathetic people will it take to provide me with relief?

It is not my intention to "contact, in depth" with newcomers, nor to follow the groupthink party line with others. I have one objective: to carry the message of the singular path to recovery according to the BB. Nothing more and nothing less. Now, which of you will explain another way to achieve a recovered state besides the steps?


There is a world of difference between doctrine and dogma.
dogma:a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds
doctrine: a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief

I try to approach this from a doctrinal perspective. It seems I have to deal with dogma in doing so!

Patsy - I haven't been here under another name. Maybe I should think about it! :D

[Willard]

Reasonable responses, thank you. I like your point by point rebuttal. but, you missed these:

"If I'm interpreting - tell me how. If the message is flawed - explain why.

Folks, alcoholism is a serious disease. We all acknowledge that. What then is the solution? If I am beyond human aid, how many meetings, with how many sincere, helpful, concerned, unselfish, sympathetic people will it take to provide me with relief?"


"The heavy handed approach", as opposed to "love and empathy". Interesting.

I suppose that's why the sucess rate has soared.

[vegyman]

It is not my intention to "contact, in depth" with newcomers, nor to follow the groupthink party line with others. I have one objective: to carry the message of the singular path to recovery according to the BB. Nothing more and nothing less. Now, which of you will explain another way to achieve a recovered state besides the steps?

Your missing the whole point, Willard Our primary purpose is to help those still suffering. Your statement says your here to fulfill your own adjenda. The Big Book and the steps came about after the first 100 recovered. They had 6 steps from the Oxford group and in Dr. Bob's group, it's said they used less then the 6 steps. The 6 steps were enlarged to 12 because Bill W. thought there were to many loopholes in just the use of 6. The whole point was Bill W. still needed a drink, but instead, he went looking for another alcoholic. Thats when he met Dr. Bob. So recovery is helping others if your house is inorder.

[Willard]

Lunchtime in Houston. Hope you're all having a wonderful day. I am.

Charlie,
You're a thoughtful person and express yourself well. In this particular case, I asked "how" I was interpreting and you explained "what" interpretation is. Clever, I admit, but it didn't answer the question: How am I interpreting? If interpretation means "to put forth meaning", then I contend it's not I who interpret, but others. Maybe even you.

Here's why I'm so convinced we need to stay on point with the singular message:"...as flawed humans, we tend to inflect our personal interpretation in how we carry the message".? We have the perfect message, carried by imperfect messengers- absolutely true. The tendency to interpret, as you noted,? distorts that message. Therefore, why dilute it in any way, shape, manner or form? If the newcomer is "already confused", give him the singular message. As I've heard it said: "Keep it simple". It is simple, isn't it?


"As many as it takes" Clever. 1 x zero is zero, 10 x zero is zero, 100 x zero is zero, 1000 x zero is zero, ad infinitum.

Until later

[Patsyd1]

If I'm interpreting - tell me how. If the message is flawed - explain why.

Patsy, and apparently others, seem to think my position is "my way, or the highway." Am I being unreasonable, or is what I'm saying so uncomfortable it causes these responses?


Hi Willard,

Could it even be possible in your world, that I simply do not want, what you have Willard? Thats not an insult, thats just my truth. Why? Because I love what this simple program of Alcoholics Anonymous has given to this alkie. Its given me a life second to none.

In AA, one of many valuable things that I learned, gained and pass on, is that working, applying and practicing the 12 Steps in my own life, and passing it on......has enabled this once lonely, fearful, anxious, irritable and discontent alkie to become one among many today. This simple program of 12 Steps has allowed this alkie to be a part of, and not apart from. I am no longer desperately trying to be "better than", and I am no longer struggling not to feel "less than". What a gift it is to be simply one among many today, a part of this wonderful world wide Fellowship, that was named after the Book... Alcoholics Anonymous.

I find myself stepping back today, whenever I hear any one claiming that theirs is the only valid interpretation of this simple program. When the reality is, that when we work, apply and practice this simple program in our own life, and we pass it on..... we become the person, that God wants us to be, not the person that Willard wants us to be.

I trust God and clean house today. Because anyone who has ever lived in a house, knows and understands that it needs to be cleaned.....more than once. LOL


Big Book....Page 95
Unless your friend wants to talk further about himself,
do not wear out your welcome. Give him a chance
to think it over. If you do stay , let him steer the conversation
in any direction he like. Sometimes a new
man is anxious to proceed at once, and you may be
tempted to let him do so. This is sometimes a mistake.
If he has trouble later, he is likely to say you rushed
him. You will be most successful with alcoholics if
you do not exhibit any passion for crusade or reform.
Never talk down to an alcoholic from any moral or spiritual
hilltop; simply lay out the kit of spiritual tools for
his inspection. Show him how they worked with you.
Offer him friendship and fellowship. Tell him that if
he wants to get well you will do anything to help.

Big Book....Page 98
Burn the idea into the consciousness of every man
that he can get well regardless of anyone. The only
condition is that he trust in God and clean house.




Big Book page 164
Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realize
we know only a little. God will constantly disclose
more to you and to us. Ask Him in your morning meditation
what you can do each day for the man who is
still sick. The answers will come, if your own house is
in order. But obviously you cannot transmit something
you haven't got. See to it that your relationship with
Him is right, and great events will come to pass for
you and countless others. This is the Great Fact for us.
Abandon yourself to God as you understand God.
Admit your faults to Him and to your fellows. Clear
away the wreckage of your past. Give freely of what
you find and join us. We shall be with you in the Fellowship
of the Spirit, and you will surely meet some of
us as you trudge the Road of Happy Destiny.
May God bless you and keep you -- until then.

[Carol87]

8)

Or as Bill said in the Foreword to "As Bill Sees It" ... emphasis mine ...


Foreword to "As Bill Sees It"

Dear Friends:

This volume includes several hundred excerpts from our literature, touching nearly every aspect of A.A.?s way of life.? It is felt that this material may become an aid to individual meditation and a stimulant to group discussion, and may well lead to a still wider reading of all our literature.Over the past twenty-five years, it has been my privilege to write these books about A.A.: the text of ?Alcoholics Anonymous,? ?Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions,? ?Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age,? and ?Twelve Concepts for World Service," the last as a part of our ?Third Legacy Manual.? * Many pieces have been written for our monthly magazine, the A.A. Grapevine, and I have always carried on a large personal correspondence.

These are the chief sources from which the content was chosen for this volume.? Because the quotations used were lifted out of their original context, it has been necessary in the interest of clarity to edit, and sometimes to rewrite, a number of them.

Of course, all this material reflects my personal viewpoint on A.A.'s way of life.? As such, it is bound to have its limitations and imperfections.? Nevertheless, one may hope that this new publication will meet a genuine need.

Every devotedly,

/s/ Bill

[bluidkiti]

After reading all this kiti is left wondering how many licks it takes to get to the roll in the middle of the tootsie pop? http://www.ipass.net/a1idpirat/confused2.gif I am being serious here. I am tired also.

[vegyman]

The 1939 first edition AA Big Book was followed by the 1953 AA book "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions." The 12&12 did not repeat vital Big Book directions, but "broadened and deepened the understanding" of those basic directions of "precisely how we recovered."

The 12 & 12 should be placed next to the Big Book when doing the steps. Side by side. One must remeber that the 12 steps were actually 6 steps borrowed from the Oxford group. Unproven to work yet. (The original 100 did 6 steps.) And writen when the first 100 had a few years of sobriety. There has been no need to change the first 164 pages of the Big Book because the 12 & 12 takes care of the imperfections in the Big Book. The 12 & 12 covers a lot of things that weren't covered in the Big Book.

Getting back to the topic, is using just the Big Book to recover when wheres plenty of AA approved material available, would that be concidered half measure recovery? or counterfit AA? LOL. or " theres no wrong way to do the steps"?

[Willard]

Patsy, I'm sure you don't want what I have! It's mutual. No need to think I'm insulted. To the contrary, I find it complimentary. You mention "your truth". As opposed to what? It's either the truth, or it's not. No one has exclusivity and truth isn't subjective - that is, it isn't subject to your definition.

"...whenever I hear any one claiming that theirs is the only valid interpretation of this simple program." You guys keep saying I'm interpreting. How so? I don't put forth meaning. Reading the BB and applying the rules of syntax is not interpretation! Look up the word "deconstruct". It'll tell you how to read the BB - without interpretation.

Carol, so what's your point?

No one knows how many licks it takes to reach the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop. No one's ever made it without biting the last little bit. I know that's got to be true. It's in another AA "authority" - the Grapevine!

vegyman, this is really interesting... I mean really, really interesting..."...the 12 & 12 takes care of the imperfections in the Big Book" What imperfections, specifically, are you referencing here?

To answer your question: when all that was available was the BB, the poor souls who only had it were probably doomed to half measure recovery. Right?


And to all of you: What did those poor unfortunates do with only the BB? Couldn't have been too ineffective, they had a 75% recovery rate.

Keep those cards and letters coming. I'm not outnumbered...., yet!

[WolfM]

Dear Willard,
As long as you say you are a member of Acoholics Anonymous, you will be a part of this wonderful group.? You will not be outnumbered because you are one of us.? Not the enemy. As long as you are a member of this forum you are one of us.

I am an imperfect human being.? I have remained sober for many years studying the Big Book, going to meetings, Working the Steps, and talking to my sponsor(s).
Because I am imperfect, I still have character defects.? These character defects can not be taken care of with step 6 and 7.? I beleive that I should begin at step one and admit my powerlessness and admit that my life has become unmanageable.
Sure, these issues have not caused me to lose my job, or my car, or THIS wife, but neither did my drinking.? I still has all those things when I hit bottom (is that the correct term?).
I may have been relieved of the obsession to drink, but that does not mean that I am recovered. The message that I carry, by using my experience, strength, and hope as it relates to the Big Book, is one of hope.? Hope that we do not have to live or die drunk.

Now I know that you don't like slogans or sayings but I have heard that you can carry the message, but you can not carry the alcoholic.? I truly believe that. And believe it or not, there was a time when I took it personally when someone I was working with went back out.? But it was none of my business. It was their choice.? And I could not judge them, because since I am not cured, I know that but for the Grace of God that could be me.? So I lean into the program for support.? The program keeps me connected with the God of my understanding, more than any other thing or entity I have tried before.

Your posts have been very informative.? They have been very blunt. sometimes adversarial, and certainly very thought provoking.? They are well written and thought out.? But when you distill all the rhetoric, opinion, and personalities down to the purest form, AA is still only about one alcoholic helping another. It is THAT simple.? ?

Wolf M

[Willard]

WolfM,

I appreciate your kind comments and respect your experience. Mine has been different. I took the action of the steps and recovered. And, with all due respect, I believe when distilled and in its purest form, AA is the grace of God restoring alcoholics to health. All the rest is important, but only to the extent we carry that message, as you said, from one alcoholic to another. I hold the fellowship and meetings in very high regard, but only as a means. Confusing the ends with the means is, at best, obfuscating the truth. At worst, we send the message to newcomers that the institution of AA - meetings, fellowship, et al -? ?is more important than the program of recovery.

Thanks

[vegyman]

Your counterfit AA will always be around, Willard. Why? Because of human nature. No one likes to have to take a look at themselves. They would rather find a easier softer way then to work on the steps. All I can do is be an example of what living ALL the steps and traditions can do for a person and when he is ready to go to any lengths to recover from alcoholism, I'll be there.

[Patsyd1]

You mention "your truth". As opposed to what? It's either the truth, or it's not. No one has exclusivity and truth isn't subjective - that is, it isn't subject to your definition.

I have "my truth".... and my truth isn't up for interpretation. My truth, is defined quite well today, by God and me.

[Willard]

Gee Patsy -you and God together define truth. Impressive. Ask God if this is a true definition,delusional: "a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self"

[Willard]

"Your counterfit AA will always be around, Willard."

Ain't it the truth? You may want to check with Patsy on that "truth" thing. She seems to have her own version of what is and isn't "truth".

Since the countefeit AA is apparently permanent, I believe I have an obligation to point it out. In so doing, I annoy a lot of people and create a little controversy from time to time. Controversy creates friction, which produces heat, which generates light. Throwing a little light on bogus AA seems to cause it great distress! :D

BTW - you mentioned imperfections in the BB. I would love to know what you, or others, consider these imperfections to be.

[vegyman]

I believe I have an obligation to point it out.

Won't help, Willard. The newcomer will hear what he "can" hear. Until he "can" go to any lengths for sobriety. It sounds more like you have changed obsessions, Wilard, LOL.

The Big is not perfect or they wouldn't have writen the 12 & 12, it's that simple, but having tunnel vision would make it difficult to see that huh? LOL.

It is not my intention to "contact, in depth" with newcomers

Thats good, Wilard, but if you do decide to help a newcomer, I suggest you read all approved materials first! LOL.

[Patsyd1]

Gee Patsy -you and God together define truth.

God and I are the only ones today that get to define "my truth"

That is one of miracles of working the 12 Steps Willard, is that I have GOD, as I understand Him, and Me.
Although that may be delusional to you Willard, its only one of the miracles of working this program, for this alkie.

[Willard]

vegyman, are you hedging on me? This is the second time you referenced BB mistakes: "The Big is not perfect or they wouldn't have writen the 12 & 12, it's that simple..." As written, you are stating that the 12x12 corrects unnamed BB errors. Who decided the mistakes? Who decided they were corrected? You don't provide specifics. Can you give me an example(s)?

Why would I want to clutter the simplicity of the BB message by reading other materials?

The newcomer "hears" what he "can" and that is his struggle. My "obsession" is to make sure he hears the unvarnished message. What he, or others, do with it isn't mine to determine. I know it helps. The only resistance to my delivery and "tunnel vision" perspective is from those who are indoctrinated into the AA lifestyle. AA is well suited as a design for life. Those who live in the unnatural, insulated world of AA groupthink don't like what I have to say. Newcomers do.

Patsy, I repeat, I'm impressed. Wow, you and God defining truth. Is it me that's delusional? Patsy, the truth is the truth...period. How you define it is irrelevant.

[vegyman]

LOL. Read the 12 & 12 for your self and find out, Wilard. I am not here to do your homework. LOL.

[Patsyd1]

Patsy, I repeat, I'm impressed. Wow, you and God defining truth. Is it me that's delusional?

Well I don't know Willard if you are delusional or not. I do know that I am not impressed with what you "think" you know. I would suggest that its ok to get outside help if thats what you need. Yes, its in the Big Book that its ok to do that! LOL

[Willard]

I've got to get to work after this. I'll check back at lunchtime.

vegyman, I've done much homework? over the last 16+ years. If I note a mistake I clearly identify it and say why. I do believe you're hedging. If there's a mistake, what is it?? I'm surprised by your hesitance.? :D

Patsy, have you ever heard: "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight"? I'm guessing the answer is "no". Fortunately for both of us, your being impressed with me, or not, is as irrelevant as your deciding what truth is, or isn't. Don't get your knickers all twisted up. Do you need a meeting?? :D

[vegyman]

Your an alcoholic, Wilard, and what I say won't change your mind, so go read the 12 & 12 yourself and just maybe you will see what "we" are talking about.

[Willard]

vegyman, In the preface to the third edition of the BB, published in 1976, we find this: "...this book has become the basic text for our society..." .

So, 23 years after the 12x12, the "mistakes" in the BB aren't corrected? Why wouldn't they correct them? Could it be because there aren't any and you made a statement that can't be supported? And, you're leading me to read the 12x12 as a red herring to hide it. Yep, that's what it must be.

Otherwise, you wouldn't be doing all this dancing.

[vegyman]

Read it and find out if my statement is ture, LOL.

[Willard]

I'll make you a deal. If I can find a copy, I'll read until I find a conflict between it and the BB. I'll post my reason for thinking that. You will then tell me why the 12x12 should take precedence over the BB. Agreed?

[Willard]

Either take the deal or recant on the "mistakes in the BB" position.

[vegyman]

I'll make you a deal. If I can find a copy, I'll read until I find a conflict between it and the BB. I'll post my reason for thinking that. You will then tell me why the 12x12 should take precedence over the BB. ?Agreed?

Not ?precedence, but used side by side when working the steps, the 12 & 12 does NOT repeat anything writen in the Big Book.

[Willard]

If it doesn't repeat, then it must have some guidance, clarifying, counseling, instructing, etc, that causes it be recommended as a "side by side" companion.

You said there are mistakes in the BB that were addressed and corrected in the 12x12. That's the issue. Is that a true statement, or not? You can't have it both ways! :D

[Willard]

Back to the grind. I'll check in later today.

[vegyman]

You said that, I said the Big Book wasn't perfect, so they added more information to help the newcomer.

[Patsyd1]

Patsy, have you ever heard: "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight"? I'm guessing the answer is "no". Fortunately for both of us, your being impressed with me, or not, is as irrelevant as your deciding what truth is, or isn't. Don't get your knickers all twisted up. Do you need a meeting?

Willard, the above sounds like someone who only did ONE 4th step. LOL

[vegyman]

Heres something interesting I just found;

What Steps?
You won't spend much time digging in our early "Program" without realizing that, at its peak percentage-of-success period, which commenced in 1935, there were no Steps. No steps? No steps!" To assure your consideration of that fact, let's look at the record:

"Dr. Bob, noting that there were no Twelve Steps at the time and that "our stories didn't amount to anything to speak of,' later said they were convinced that the answer to their problems was in the Good Book" (DR BOB and the Good Oldtimers, p. 96).

"As Dr. Bob recalled: "I didn't write the Twelve Steps. I had nothing to do with the writing of them... We already had the basic ideas, though not in terse and tangible form. We got them... as a result of our study of the Good Book'." (DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers, p. 97).

"Dorothy [Snyder Murphy] recalled the 1937 meetings when "the men would all disappear upstairs... After about half an hour or so, down would come the new man, shaking, white, serious, and grim. And all the people who were already in A.A. would come trooping down after him. They were pretty reluctant to talk about what had happened, but after a while, they would tell us they had had a real surrender. I often wonder how many people that come in now would survive an experience like that?a regular old fashioned prayer meeting'." (DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers, p. 101).

"But Bill did get to see John D. Rockefeller, Jr., who dispatched Frank Amos out to Akron to investigate what was going on. Mr. Amos, who was soon to become one of A.A.'s first non-alcoholic trustees, did a thorough job of investigating what he referred to as the "self-styled Alcoholic Group of Akron, Ohio.' He called on Dr. Bob and attended meetings. He questioned members and nonmembers, including professional associates of Dr. Bob... In his report to Mr. Rockefeller in February, 1938, Mr. Amos said... "they [the stories of the men, their wives, and in some cases their mothers]... were all remarkably alike in "the technique used and the system followed.' He described the "Program' as follows: "1. An alcoholic must realize that he is an alcoholic, incurable from a medical standpoint, and that he must never again drink anything with alcohol in it. 2. He must surrender himself absolutely to God, realizing that in himself there is no hope. 3. Not only must he want to stop drinking permanently, he must remove from his life other sins such as hatred, adultery, and others which frequently accompany alcoholism. Unless he will do this absolutely, Smith and his associates refuse to work with him. 4. He must have devotions every morning?a "quiet time' of prayer and some reading from the Bible and other religious literature. Unless this is faithfully followed, there is grave danger of backsliding. 5. He must be willing to help other alcoholics get straightened out. This throws up a protective barrier and strengthens his own willpower and convictions. 6. It is important, but not vital, that he meet frequently with other reformed alcoholics and form both a social and religious comradeship. 7. Important, but not vital, that he attend some religious service at least once weekly'." (DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers, pp. 128-31).

I remember sitting in Wisconsin in the home of an experienced AA. That was several years ago. We listened to the taped interrogation of Ed Andy, an A.A. oldtimer from Lorain, Ohio. Ed Andy is dead now. But at the time, he was questioned again and again as to how he "took the Steps." Most of the time, he simply responded with talk about other things they did in the old days. But he also frequently said, "There were no Steps." I really don't think his interrogators understood him because they were not that conversant with the "Program" that Frank Amos and Dr. Bob explained as set forth above. The A.A. questioners seemed not to believe that this old duffer had been sober so many years without taking "the Steps."

But there were no steps! The "Program" was described by Frank Amos. And Amos accurately reported what the pioneers did. They renounced alcohol. They surrendered absolutely to their Creator for help. They worked at removing "sins" from their lives. They had devotions in the form of prayer, Bible study, use of religious literature such as The Upper Room, and seeking revelation from God in what was commonly called a "Quiet Time." They helped alcoholics get straightened out. They fellowshipped with other believers. And they often attended a weekly religious service. No steps! No Oxford Group program. Just the simple acts described above.

Their actions and their Program were influenced to a greater and greater degree by what was in the Bible, in Oxford Group writings, in Anne Smith's journal, and in the religious literature. And they followed much the same prayer, Bible study, quiet time, and witnessing ideas Dr. Bob had learned in his youth in Christian Endeavor in St. Johnsbury, Vermont.

http://www.mental-health-matters.com/articles/print.php?artID=245

[angussdundee]

Seems to me that all this deliberation and cogitation regarding all of our lifesaving AA literature, is in fact taking us BACKWARDS instead of forwards into a new and happy existence. I know this, that when the AA big book was first published in 1939 it was sent out to individual, isolated alcoholics all over the USA and Canada. There were NO AA groups No sponsors for these alcoholics , so they did these steps with people who were available to them, wives, bestfriends or "spiritual advisers".
I'm not a well read city slicker, I'm a simple country boy from a mining village who needs to have things explaned in simple terms and I don't need to look up a squirels ass with a magnifying glass to know that it likes nuts, I just except that FACT.
The "TRUTH" is, the simple AA program was surely aimed at "Drunks" many of whom were still in hospitals, sanitariums and drunk tanks, it had to be simple, these people were far too sick for anything as complicated as we're making out to be now.
I just hope anyone strugling with their first contact with AA will have it explaned to them in simple terms by simple, compasionate people and not by intellectual, middle class smart-asses who don't seem to want to pass anything on except their own arrogant disrespect for anyone elses ability to interperate this simple program and "willingly" interact with other "recovering" alcoholics for their common good and for the future good of this fellowship.

;D nuff from me, my soap box is creaking!!!

anguss.

[Patsyd1]

I know this, that when the AA big book was first published in 1939 it was sent out to individual, isolated alcoholics all over the USA and Canada. There were NO AA groups No sponsors for these alcoholics

Actually, although the name "Alcoholics Anonymous" had not yet been coined, 3 men actually made up the nucleus of the first AA group. In the fall of 1935, a second group of alcoholics slowly took shape in New York. A third appeared at Cleveland in 1939. It had taken over four years to produce 100 sober alcoholics in the three founding groups. They sponsored one another.



Other than that anguss, I agree with everything else you shared.

[Willard]

"...intellectual, middle class smart-asses who don't seem to want to pass anything on except their own arrogant disrespect for anyone elses ability to interperate this simple program and "willingly" interact with other "recovering" alcoholics for their common good and for the future good of this fellowship."

The only thing worse than an intellectual, arrogant smart-ass is an ignorant, groupthink-indoctrinated alcoholic preaching from the pulpit of false modesty.

I've always found it amusing that when these folks can't back up their "aw shucks, gee whiz I'm just a grateful recovering alcoholic" with facts, they become downright insulting. I wonder what has happened to their "love, tolerance and patience". I know, it's just for those who agree with them. When their bogus AA is challenged they drag out their time. When that doesn't work they drag out their "experience". When that doesn't work they resort to indignation that anyone would question their spurious beliefs.

When that doesn't work - they start throwing insults. Please. Patsy and anguss - you know nothing of me or my background. If you're going to speculate, can't you come up with something better than this?

AA has, since its beginning, transformed the lives of hundreds of thousands. The program of recovery ? the action of the 12 steps ? is remarkable in its simplicity and effectiveness. When the action is executed, as described in the BB, alcoholics recover ? a true miracle.

The institution of AA ? the fellowship, groups and meetings ? and the publication of the BB allowed the recovery message to spread worldwide.

Along the way, the idea developed that the institution was as important as the message, if not more so. As that idea grew and spread, newcomers were exposed to the concept of AA as a culture; a way of life with it?s own jargon, literature and folklore.? Length of sobriety became a badge of authority. A strict regimen of meeting attendance replaced the original intent of recovery: to move back into the mainstream of life and do service work as an avocation, not as a means of survival.

Today, newcomers are taught that the BB is only one of many texts that can be referenced as ?approved? literature. They are exhorted to attend meetings religiously and cautioned that permanent recovery isn?t possible. Indeed, in most cases they hear that recovery isn?t possible at all. The best that can be hoped for, they are told, is a lifetime of meetings, severe self-appraisal and penance. Further, they are told they must be grateful for this "new way of life".

In the Fellowship of AA today there are two paths: one is to become part of the AA sub-culture; to immerse yourself in the fellowship, the group, service work and meetings - on a daily basis for the rest of your life - as a means to stay sober. This way is far superior to being an active alcoholic. But, it?s the lesser of the two choices.

The other is to take the action of the steps ? as written - and to recover from alcoholism. Then carry the message to others. Your sobriety will then be dependent on God alone. You can participate in the rest, as a means to help others, knowing that the message you carry is one of hope and not despair.

Back in the 1840?s a young boy in a small Texas town saw a four-color poster advertising the circus coming to his town. The pictures enchanted him. There were exotic animals, painted clowns, beautiful acrobats and the promise of a magical show. He worked hard for three weeks to earn the dime it took to see the circus.

The great day arrived and the young boy went to town. The parade down the main street was thrilling. The band, the pipe organ, the clowns, animals and other sights and sounds amazed him. At the end, the organ grinder worked the crowd with a small monkey offering a tin cup for donations. The young boy joyfully threw in his dime and ran home elated.

Years later he realized he never did see the circus; only the parade. If you?ve paid the price of admission to become a member of the Fellowship of AA, make sure you get all there is to experience. Don?t miss the circus.

[Willard]

A short note for anguss, and I believe Patsy agreed with him, re: "intellectual, smart-ass".

Compassionate, simple, well-meaning indviduals who promote dis-information, in the sweetest, kindest, most sympathetic way possible remind me of those who say, "it was an honest mistake". An honest mistake, made by a sincere, well- intentioned person is, in the final analysis, a mistake. Some mistakes are relatively harmless - others are fatal.

I have no formal education. I come from a lower middle-class background. I blew my chance at college chasing the "buzz". When I got to AA, I realized that to understand what was written - as it was intended by the writers - I needed to understand the mechanics of the language and the actual meaning of the words used. I spent many hours studying syntax and looking up words. The help I sought from AA "lifers" wasn't in keeping with what I read. While not formal training, I learned enough of how to deconstruct text and think in a linear fashion to save my life.

So, please, save your Pecksniffian outrage for those easily intimidated by your sophistic protestations. (How's that for an intellectual, smart-ass, pedantic statement!!!)



I guess it paid off in more ways than one. I now have at least two who think I'm an intellectual. Wow! Thanks!

[angussdundee]

Willard say's "how's that for an inellectual, smart ass, pedantic statement". Well, it's just as it reads. Glad to see you sharing a little about yourself at last.

anguss.

[Willard]

Now, we're getting somewhere anguss. You said of my sentence, "Well, it's just as it reads."

If what I write is just as it reads, I'm assuming that you believe what you write is just the way it reads. Given that, why would the writers of the BB be any different.

So, I'm sure you'll agree with this, from page 132: We have recovered", and have been given the power to help others." (my emphasis)

Now, given this is - "just as it reads" -? if members havent't recovered yet, do you suppose it's bacause "they can not", or because they will not ", completely give themselves to this simple program...." (page 58) ? (my emphasis) Or do they use rationale to distort what's written?

No need to tell others much about me. This is not about me. Besides, you all seem to have your minds made up about many issues already.

[Patsyd1]

No need to tell others much about me.


Big Book.....Page 15

"We meet frequently so that newcomers may find the fellowship
they seek. At these informal gatherings one may often see
from 50 to 200 persons. We are growing in numbers and
power."





Big Book....Page 18

"We hope this volume will inform and comfort those
who are, or who may be affected. There are many.
Highly competent psychiatrists who have dealt with
us have found it sometimes impossible to persuade an
alcoholic to discuss his situation without reserve.
Strangely enough, wives, parents and intimate friends
usually find us even more unapproachable than do the
psychiatrist and the doctor.

But the ex-problem drinker who has found this solution,
who is properly armed with facts about himself,
can generally win the entire confidence of another alcoholic
in a few hours. Until such an understanding is
reached, little or nothing can be accomplished.

That the man who is making the approach has had
the same difficulty, that he obviously knows what he
is talking about, that his whole deportment shouts at
the new prospect that he is a man with a real answer,
that he has no attitude of Holier Than Thou, nothing
whatever except the sincere desire to be helpful; that
there are no fees to pay, no axes to grind, no people to
please, no lectures to be endured these are the conditions
we have found most effective. After such an approach
many take up their beds and walk again."

[angussdundee]

Willis, I've heard the recovered vs recovering argument many times during my time in AA and it'll go on with or without you and I perpetuating it. It runs alongside the genetics vs environmental debate, and at the end of the day, it doesn't change the fact that we're alcoholics to-day and there is no other way to get well than by trying to lead our lives by the principles laid out in the simple 12 step recovery program of AA.
May I draw your attention to pages 291 and 292 of our AA big book, from the story entitled " He sold himself short".
This describes how Dr. Bob took a candidate (only a few weeks of the drink) through the program that they had at that time (6 steps) in just a few hours. We no longer have Dr. Bob but we do have the instructions in the big book and we follow those. Provided we don't complicate it - we can still take a candidate through it in a matter of a few hours and all in one sitting provided the candidate is willing, familiar with chapters 5 and 6 of the big book and the instructions of the first eleven steps.
I was taken through the steps that way - Dr, Bob's way - and I was so gratefull to the Irishman, once a down and out street drinker, who gave me his strength, hope and experience so freely with nothing asked in return other than that I get well and try to pass it on to another alcoholic who still suffers.
May I also draw your attention to the warning on page 293 of the big book which tells us that we cannot take a moral inventory then file it away as if we are "recovered" We alcoholics have to take inventory every day if we expect to get well and stay well.
And on that note, will you please accept my apology if I insulted or offended you in any way?

Anguss.

[Willard]

When faced with the facts I can do one of three things:
1] Recognize the truth and change my thinking,
2] Recognize the truth and distort it to match my belief, or
3] Ignore it.

I've learned that number one is the best, and most difficult way, for me.

Looks like you caught me on this one, Patsy. I concede the point.


I'm headed to Dallas for a working week-end. I'll try to stop by if I can.

[angussdundee]

Hhhmmm.... ::) might be a little quiet round here with Willis in Dallas for the weekend.......I might chase those pesky squirrels... or tidy up those leaves.... or.....hhmmmmm ::) tum tee tum tee tum....maybe a meeting.....sniff ::)
anguss.

[Patsyd1]

Willis, I've heard the recovered vs recovering argument many times during my time in AA and it'll go on with or without you and I perpetuating it. It runs alongside the genetics vs environmental debate, and at the end of the day, it doesn't change the fact that we're alcoholics to-day and there is no other way to get well than by trying to lead our lives by the principles laid out in the simple 12 step recovery program of AA.


Tradition Ten:? Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy.

AA has no opinion on genetics vs environmental, its an outside issue.

AA doesn't claim now nor at any other time, that we have the only way to get sober or well.

AA members have alot of different opinions, but lets not confuse individual AA members opinions, with AA as a whole.


The following is this alcoholics experience on what I have learned through working, applying and practicing what I have read in the Big Book.



"Forward in the Big Book:
We, of Alcoholics Anonymous, are more than
one hundred men and women who have recovered
from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body. To
show other alcoholics precisely how we have recovered
is the main purpose of this book."

My experience is, that I am recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body.


Big Book Page....64
"Resentment is the "number one" offender. It destroys
more alcoholics than anything else. From it stem all
forms of spiritual disease, for we have been not only
mentally and physically ill, we have been spiritually
sick. When the spiritual malady is overcome, we
straighten out mentally and physically."

Big Book Page.... 84 & 85
"We will seldom be interested in liquor. If
tempted, we recoil from it as from a hot flame.
We react sanely and normally, and we will find that this
has happened automatically. We will see that our new
attitude toward liquor has been given us without any
thought or effort on our part. It just comes! That is the
miracle of it. We are not fighting it, neither are we
avoiding temptation. We feel as though we had been
placed in a position of neutrality safe and protected.
We have not even sworn off. Instead, the problem has
been removed. It does not exist for us. We are neither
cocky nor are we afraid. That is our experience. That
is how we react so long as we keep in fit spiritual condition.

It is easy to let up on the spiritual program of action
and rest on our laurels. We are headed for trouble if
we do, for alcohol is a subtle foe. We are not cured of
alcoholism. What we really have is a daily reprieve
contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition."

My experience is that I am in recovery Spiritually, one day at a time, what I really have is a daily reprieve contingent on the maintenance of my spiritual condition

[Carol87]

Haven't we exhausted the "recovered vs recovering" discussion ::)? ??? ... let's move forward ...? ?:)

Besides that, I'm tired of posting this ...?? :D :)?

If you consider yourself "recovering" in order to maintain the consciousness that you must never drink, so be it. If you consider yourself "recovered" because the Big Book says that's the way we get, then so be that, too. Either way you will be a winner?you won't drink, and you will base your program of recovery on the teachings of the Big Book.