White Knuckle Sobriety

[Carol87]

I was watching Oprah's show today on addictions and treatment ... specifically Meth ... Among others, they interviewed a woman who had been married for 14 years, found a boy friend who introduced her to CM, divorced her husband, went to treatment and has now been clean for 42 days.? ?A rehab counselor was also on the show and made this statement to her when she was talking about getting through each day:

"Right now what's going on with you is what's called 'white knuckle sobriety.' Every day you're just hanging on for another day but you don't have recovery. Not using the drug is not recovery?it's just the gateway to recovery. It just gives you the right to belong to the group."

That is the first time I heard that term and it hit me right between the eyes!? ?Although alcohol was my drug of choice, I now realize that is exactly what I was doing ... I was in so much denial and hanging on for another day with? "white knuckle sobriety" with NO recovery for at least three years.? At the time, I had to daily drive by the store where I bought my liquor and literally gripped the steering wheel to keep going straight.? I also remember buying and drinking the so-called non-alcoholic wine ... when I think about that, I'm amazed that I didn't just reach over and get the real stuff.? ?And I questioned whether or not I was alcoholic!!? ?:P

Thank goodness I got past that 'phase' and got into recovery instead of being around recovery.? ?Another gift from my Higher Power whom I choose to call God.? ?:)

[Willard]

This is exactly why I continue to hammer home that the fellowship is not the answer. The fellowship is valuable as support - but not the source of recovery. A daily struggle to stay dry one miserable, fearful day at-a-time didn't work for me. I can't imagine going three years that way! I never lasted more than six months. Being involved in service work, attending meetings and socializing are being around recovery and won't produce the transfomation needed for recovery. Taking the action of the steps is the only way to be in recovery.

[Carol87]

Willard, I was waiting for you to critique my post? - what took you so long?? LOL? ? :o

I can tell you for the three years that I was 'around' recovery, I was going to meetings on a regular basis.? ?Did I share?? No? ?Was I working the steps?? No? ?Did I have a sponsor?? Not really? ?Was I in denial?? Absolutely!? ?Was I miserable? ?Of course.? ?BUT in spite of what you say, for ME, during that time the fellowship was my source of recovery, although lukewarm.? ?Had I not been in the rooms of AA, there is no doubt in my mind that I never would have made it all these 18 years.? Nor would I have met the person that finally pointed to one of the stories in the BB that finally answered my questions.? ?(Specifically page 379 in the third edition; page 354 in the fourth edition.)

This is just one part of my EXPERIENCE that gave me the strength to move forward in hopes that life would be better.? It also gave me the knowledge I need today to work with others.? I do believe that I had to go through "pains of drinking had to come before sobriety, and emotional turmoil before serenity."? (Page 94, 12 and 12)? I also believe that when the pupil is ready, the teacher will appear.? ?Also known to me as God's timing.

If you're new, I don't recommend my course of action ... it is the long hard way to sobriety!? But worth the pain if you move upward and forward.? ? :P :'(? ?;)

For ME, being IN recovery is doing all the things that I wasn't doing.? ??

[Willard]

Had I known you were waiting I would have been quicker. Far be it from me to keep someone waiting! :D

I would say argue that what you experienced wasn't recovery. Meetings and the fellowship serve as an important resource while we struggle with the denial - as you mentioned. Implicit in recovery is the elimination of "white knuckling". Not drinking isn't necessarily recovery. Once you were in the program, but not before, you achieved recovery. Right?

Which reinforces my point. There's a huge difference between the "program" and the fellowship. One produces recovery, the other provides support. Recovery can't be achieved without the program. Support, while helpful, won't bring recovery. I couldn't have resisted for three years - I'm glad you made it!

The pupil can be ready without a teacher appearing.

[Carol87]

Willard, I respect your opinions. although I don't always agree.? ?It just takes too much of my already-limited energy to "analyze until I paralyze"? :-\? ?... I know how I felt, know what worked for me, how I feel today and I stand by what I said ... obviously, I wasn't working a perfect program but I believe I was exactly where I needed to be and I kept/continue to keep trudging.?? ::)? The one thing I don't plan on doing is getting sober again ...? :) ;)

[Willard]

I remain convinced that, regardless of personal experience, the meaning of words and syntax are important to clear communication. With that, the difference between the AA "program" (the steps) and everything else about AA needs to be kept separate. Otherwise, the line gets blurred and one person's experience becomes a "program" variation. Over time, the many variations begin to overlap and confusion as to what the "program" really is becomes a matter of opinion.

Is it not important to know the difference?

I didn't plan on getting sober the first time! It just happened, without any effort on my part. That's the miracle of it! (paraphrased from page 85)

Which brings me to another interesting slogan in AA. "If I do the legwork, (or my part), God takes care of the rest". Now, if it happens without any effort on my part , what legwork (or part) could I possibly play?

[Carol87]

Is it not important to know the difference?


How would that enhance my life?? Trying to understand all of that stresses me out and gives me a headache.? I'm just learning to practice Rule 62 .. why further complicate the hell out of a program that I have already won Oscar Awards for by making it far more difficult than necessary. :) :P? Why not just Keep it Simple ...? ???

[Willard]

It is what it is - regardless of what I do. I don't complicate it, or simplify it.? The complication doesn't come from the program, it comes from multiple variations and interpretations. The best way to keep it simple is to read it as written. Separate the institution from the program and it may enhance your life! No kidding. :D


What, exactly, is Rule 62?

[Carol87]

What, exactly, is Rule 62?


It's in that book that Charlie was talking about.? ?Tradition Four, Page 149.? ?"Don't take yourself too **** seriously" ...

And with that ... I have nothing further to add to this thread.? ?

[Patsyd1]

The best way to keep it simple is to read it as written. Separate the institution from the program and it may enhance your life! No kidding.

There is no separating the Fellowship of AA, from the Program of AA, they are both "Alcoholics Anonymous"

Its been my experience, that there are two parts to AA, and both parts are Alcoholics Anonymous.

One is the Fellowship, and the other is the Program.

I would have never come into contact with the Program ( the first 164 pages of the Big Book).....had I not attended the Fellowship of AA first. Yes, they are separate, but with equal importance to each and every newcomer, oldtimer, and everyone in between. For this alkie, its like the human body. Every human-being that is alive and thriving, has a heart. Take either vital part away, and neither survives.

As a newcomer, I would have never ever been able to identify without the Fellowship, without the AA meetings, and without those wonderful AAer's sharing where they came from, how they got here, and what its like now. Its one alcoholic helping another, not telling another. We share own experience, strength and hope so that we may stay sober, and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.

I heard ES&H shared from the podium at my first AA meeting. Those AA's passed the message of hope to this alkie, and I hadn't even seen a Big Book yet. And I kept coming, I learned to listen, and I listened to learn. I took the suggestions, because my way didn't work and it hadn't worked in 17 yrs. I haven't found it necessary to pick up a drink, a drug or any mind altering anything, since my first AA meeting.

If an AA member had approached this alkie as newcomer, in a way that I have read here, I would be dead now. I am grateful that the AAer's approached this alkie with what is written in the Big Book, and as a result, their actions, spoke a whole lot louder then their words did.

The Big Book was written to reach as many alcoholics as possible and so that the program of recovery wouldn't be garbled and changed. If you notice in the Big Book, its doesn't say open to Chapter 5 and begin the work. No, the Big Book has the Forward, and 4 Chapters before we read: Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery:

Why do you suppose the Big Book is written that way Willard?

[Willard]

Patsy, I just noticed this. Sorry, I sure didn't mean to overlook answering your question.

"Why do you suppose the Big Book is written that way Willard?"

First, you left out the Doctor's Opinion when you said "...Forward, and 4 Chapters before...". I'm not quite sure what you're asking. If you mean the order:title page, contents, foreward, opinion, text - surprise - that's the way all books are written. If that's not what you mean, then I don't understand the question.

As to this: "If an AA member had approached this alkie as newcomer, in a way that I have read here, I would be dead now". Fortunately, apparently that's not the way you were approached. I didn't approach anyone - including you - with anything. I read the posts, I respond. I have questions, I post the topic. Others respond, I reply. Simple, really.

No one approached me; isn't it attraction rather than promotion? I was attracted. Not by sentimentality, social interaction or meeting groupthink, but by the message I read on the Title Page, "The story of how many thousands of men and women have recovered from alcoholism. (My emphasis). If I hadn't, I may be dead now.

Did you see "The Shawshank Redemption"? In it, a lifer in prison was released back into the mainstream of life. He was overwhelmed with it. The explanation was that he was "institutionalized". So thoroughly indoctrinated into the prison sub-culture he couldn't function in the mainstream of everyday, non-regulated life.? I've been blessed with a recovered state - as
advertised. I have returned to the mainstream of life. Isn't recovery wonderful?

If I can help with any other question, or questions, you may have - just let me know! Always happy to assist where I can :D

[WolfM]

Dear friends,
The last time I came to and the obsession was lifted, I knew that I needed help. AA had been on this island about a year. The woman whose hand was there when I reached out had been sober about 12 years at the time and had come from the mainland US.? She told me I would never have to drink again if I did not want to. I said I did not want to. ( I knew nothing of one day at a time or any of that). I said what did I need to do?? She said go to meetings. There was one meeting a week, and I went every Monday night.? There was no preamble, or reading of the steps, or any of that. I knew nothing of that. But I kept going to meetings and I did not drink.? So I guess technically I was not really going to AA meetings, except that everyone said they were alcoholic and they talked about how they stayed sober.
Eventually more recovering alcoholics came to live here and brought structure to the meetings. They even started ordering books and doing the 7th tradition. I began to understand what this was all about.? I was not drinking or thinking of drinking. As I said, by the grace of God that obsession was lifted.
However, I began to learn about the steps and sought a sponsor. I was very frank with the group saying that I did not want to be like any of them because they were a bunch of whiners and complainers and I did not quit drinking to be miserable.
An oldtimer pulled me aside and told me I did not have to BE like ANY of them.? I should seek out what they had that I wanted and take that part.? They were not whiners and complainers.? They were human.? None of them was drinking, but none of them was as ecstatically happy as I thought they should be, as I wanted to be.
Anyway, at about 3 1/2 years I had a sponsor, and I had a Big Book, and I was stuck at step 3.? I had a moment of clarity which told me that if I did not move forward (step 4) in the program, I would move back.? And I did not want to go back.? So I called my sponsor and made an appointment and a commitment to do the 4th and then the 5th with him.
It was at this point in my recovery that I began to really understand the program.? It was also at this time that personality conflicts threatened to tear the group apart.? I sought information in AA literature.? The biographies of the co-founders. A book called "AA Comes of Age".? The 12 and 12.? What I learned was that the problems we were having as a group were not new, and had been dealt with by the early members.? And I should just pray about it, let the group know how I felt, and do the best I could to maintain unity, and not be a part of the divisiveness.? The group stayed together, and although most of those people moved back to the mainland, I still communicate with them and see them if I make it back to the States.? Because we are held together by the bond that is the Fellowship.? So to me, the program is the steps, and the traditions, and the fellowship.? Recovery, Unity, Service.? The three legacies.
But, I got off the topic of white knuckling. I think my point was that in those first 3 1/2 years, I was not white knuckling it because I was not obsessed with drinking.? But I was not sober in the way that I am today.? I did not have inner peace like I have today.? I did not have the serenity that I have today.
Thanks for letting me share.
WolfM

[Patsyd1]

FORWARD xiii
THE DOCTOR'S OPINION xxiii
Chapter 1. BILL'S STORY 1
Chapter 2. THERE IS A SOLUTION 17
Chapter 3. MORE ABOUT ALCOHOLISM 30
Chapter 4. WE AGNOSTICS 44

I apologize, I did leave out the Doctors Opinion.? I hope the above helps, written therein, is so much that I needed as a newcomer,? before I ever saw the 5th Chapter.?



Fortunately, apparently that's not the way you were approached.

Willard, this is a message board, where anyone at all can read and share.? ?Would I be incorrect in thinking that from what I have read in your posts, that you are here at SoberLiving to teach us?? ? ? ?

No one approached me; isn't it attraction rather than promotion?
When I attended my first AA meeting, I was approached and I was welcomed warmly.? Not one AA member at my first AA meeting opened the Big Book to Chapter 5 and told me to get busy.?

When I came through the doors of AA, I had no clue what the problem was.? The Big Book is a text.? ?When I asked for help, this drunk was taken through the Big Book's first 164 pages.? If they had taken me right to Chapter 5, then I would have missed some very valuable information that I needed as a drunk, in order to recover.?

Did you see "The Shawshank Redemption"?
No I didn't see that.


Willard, I am a recovered alcoholic who has returned to mainstream of life, and I wasn't able to do this alone.? I need everyone of those drunks in the halls of AA, because I was lost, completely lost as to what the real problem was.? And thank God they all shared their ES&H with this alkie.

And yes, recovery is the greatest gift that I have ever been given.... bar none.?

The obsession to drink was lifted for this alkie, before I ever got the halls of AA, and before I ever knew about the Big Book.? ?The obsession was lifted,? when it was suggested over the phone from a recovered alcoholic, that I get on my knees and ask a Power Greater than myself to help me to stay sober for that one day.? I am grateful, so very very grateful for that gift, and the many other gifts that I have been given.? As a recovered alcoholic, who was simply given a solution that works,? I try to pass on the message of hope.? To keep it, I must give it away.

There is much in the Big Book to be grateful for.? One of the first gifts that I recieved from walking into the Fellowship of an AA meeting, before I ever saw the Big Book,? was that I knew, for the first time in my life, that I wasn't alone anymore, and the sense of isolation and lonliness that was ever present, melted away.? For that and much else, I will be forever grateful to Alcoholics Anonymous.

[vegyman]

It might interest you in knowing that Dr. Bob white knuckled it for 2 1/2 years before his obsession went away.
For myself, back in 1990, I white knocked it for 3 years and 10 months before I had a spiritual awakening. I did
exactly what Bill W. did when he felt like drinking. I went out a found a drunk who wanted help. So the
fellowship did a great part in keeping me sober. It was a place to go find someone who needed help.
Plus Dr. Bob's story told me I could stay sober with an obsession to drink. I did the steps to the best of my ability
and was sponsoring 2 guys at 90 days sober. I don't blame the fellowship or the program for the white knocking,
the problem was me. But I did find a way to stay sober. Ignorance is no excuse, I asked all the questions so that
I had no one to blame except myself.
Page 181
Unlike most of our crowd, I did not get over my craving
for liquor much during the first two and one-half
years of abstinence. It was almost always with me.
But at no time have I been anywhere near yielding. I
used to get terribly upset when I saw my friends drink
and knew I could not, but I schooled myself to believe
that though I once had the same privilege, I had abused
it so frightfully that it was withdrawn. So it doesn't
behoove me to squawk about it, for after all, nobody
ever used to throw me down and pour any liquor down my
throat.

[Willard]

Patsy, I'm having a hard time keeping up with the various topics. I'm going to restrict myself to this particular forum because of that.

With that, let me address this: "Would I be incorrect in thinking that from what I have read in your posts, that you are here at SoberLiving to teach us?"

That's a good question. I stumbled on this site searching for something else. When I read some of the comments, I thought "these folks need some help" and decided to join. My only purpose is to be of service. To some, that sounds arrogant, but not to me. When I'm called a "know-it-all", I agree. As to what it takes to recover from alcoholism, according to the BB, I do "know-it-all". That's not a large accomplishment - it's really a very simple idea.

With that, I decided to point out the differences between what was written and what's in the BB. The resistance astonished me!

Maybe I am here to teach, I'm not sure. But I won't be intimidated by those who insist on making this quite simple program: 1] more than it is,2] less than it is or 3] other than it is. If someone learns something along the way, then I suppose that's teaching. If they don't, it wasn't.

joyroadman is a great example of an institutionlized AA "lifer", based on his posts. There are others. To them, AA is not a way to recover from alcoholism, but rather a solution to all life's problems. If I need help in the medical field, from other than alcoholism, I go to a trained professional, not AA. Please note that here is a person who actually believes that he can control the "quality" of his sobriety; and not only his, but others! That is a delusion? - if one is an alcoholic. It's also the mindset of the double-digit "lifer". If a person, any person, can control their drinking, they're not an alcoholic . That person hangs around AA for other reasons - maybe they're lonely, maybe they need to feel important - who knows?

And. vegyman, you're the greatest! I don't care how long Dr. Bob, or anyone else, "white knuckles" it. It's not necessary.

And I wonder why I get asked these questions and no one else does. I find that most interesting.

[vegyman]

And. vegyman, you're the greatest! I don't care how long Dr. Bob, or anyone else, "white knuckles" it. It's not necessary.


It is not necessary if that person starts drinking again. I agree there, But, White Knocking will happen if one "can't" believe in God. You can't force God in his life. Only the person can let God into his own life. This has been my experience. My spiritual awakening didn't happen for me until 3 years anhd 10 months after I got sober. ( I talked to my sponsor 3 days after he died!)

[joyroadman]

it has been my experience that God,of my understanding, works thru people, amonst other ways..
That includes people outside and inside of AA meetings.

So today,some of my recovery comes from the fellowshiping with others ......the Fellowship of the Spirit

[vegyman]

Maybe I am here to teach, I'm not sure. But I won't be intimidated by those who insist on making this quite simple program: 1] more than it is,2] less than it is or 3] other than it is. If someone learns something along the way, then I suppose that's teaching. If they don't, it wasn't.



Dr. Bob talking to Bill W.; "Remember Bill, lets not louse this thing up. Let's keep it simple ... Willard? Can you keep anything simple? LOL.

[Willard]

vegy, my man. I'm not the one using other literature and additional sources to stay sober. I have recovered and don't need the complications of all that superflous stuff. I do keep it simple. It's the "lifers" who complicate the quite simple idea that God alone keeps the alcoholic sober. If you're an alcoholic and you believe anything you , or the group, or the fellowship, or your sponsor contributes to your continuing sobriety - you're quite mistaken. It's not even redundant - it's useless.

[vegyman]

Willard, I live here in the Philippines remember? There are NO meetings here where I am at. Your the one thats going to meetings, not me. Maybe thats why your obsessed. To hide your need for fellowship.




And. vegyman, you're the greatest! I don't care how long Dr. Bob, or anyone else, "white knuckles" it. It's not necessary.


It is not necessary if that person starts drinking again. I agree there, But, White Knocking will happen if one "can't" believe in God. You can't force God in his life. Only the person can let God into his own life. This has been my experience. My spiritual awakening didn't happen for me until 3 years anhd 10 months after I got sober. ( I talked to my sponsor 3 days after he died!)

[Willard]

Hey veg! Check it out: an AA message board for the Phillipines! http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAPhilippines/ They even have meetings there somewhere.

This may be helpful to you if my attitude causes you to seek fellowship elsewhere. Maybe they'll appreciate you for what you are.

[vegyman]

I belong to the group, there's one meeting listed in our city, but no one showed up. So AA has been here. I am working on a site myself called AAgensanphilippines, but not knowing anything about computers , it'll take time. LOL.

[possie1]

So glad it was pointed out to me early on that there are no bad examples in AA and I have choices so long as I do not take that first drink/drug and keep an open mind.

God Bless us all

[Patsyd1]

Willard,? what I am going to share with you, is this alkie's experience with you, from reading what you post.? I would never ever have been able to hear you when I first came through the doors of AA,? because what you share, and how you share it, would have turned me off completely.?

The Big Book, and the way it is written,? shares much about the joy of being recovered, and passing on the message of hope from one alcoholic, to another.? Willard,? I do not see any joy or hear any hope in all your boastings of being recovered.? ?

What I see is a man who remains childish, grandiose and gravely emotionally immature, a socially bankrupt idealist, and brooding perfectionist who lives defensively and guarded, in fear of being found out.? You rationalize, minimize, justify, and deny all your actions while casting blame upon innocent people in a vigorous attempt to avoid detection.?





When I'm called a "know-it-all", I agree. As to what it takes to recover from alcoholism, according to the BB, I do "know-it-all". That's not a large accomplishment - it's really a very simple idea.
Page 164 in the Big Book:
"Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realize
we know only a little. God will constantly disclose
more to you and to us. Ask Him in your morning meditation
what you can do each day for the man who is
still sick. The answers will come, if your own house is
in order. But obviously you cannot transmit something
you haven't got. See to it that your relationship with
Him is right, and great events will come to pass for
you and countless others. This is the Great Fact for us."



Please note that here is a person who actually believes that he can control the "quality" of his sobriety; and not only his, but others! That is a delusion - if one is an alcoholic. It's also the mindset of the double-digit "lifer". If a person, any person, can control their drinking, they're not an alcoholic . That person hangs around AA for other reasons - maybe they're lonely, maybe they need to feel important - who knows?
Page 15 in the Big Book:
"We commenced to make many fast friends and a fellowship
has grown up among us of which it is a wonderful
thing to feel a part. The joy of living we really have, even
under pressure and difficulty. I have seen hundreds of families
set their feet in the path that really goes somewhere;
have seen the most impossible domestic situations righted;
feuds and bitterness of all sorts wiped out. I have seen men
come out of asylums and resume a vital place in the lives
of their families and communities. Business and professional
men have regained their standing. There is scarcely
any form of trouble and misery which has not been overcome
among us. In one western city and its environs
there are one thousand of us and our families. We meet
frequently so that newcomers may find the fellowship they seek.
At these informal gatherings one may often see from 50 to 200 persons.
We are growing in numbers and power."




And I wonder why I get asked these questions and no one else does. I find that most interesting.
Perhaps its because we are not a glum lot Willard, and we enjoy a good joke just as much as anyone else. lol



And. vegyman, you're the greatest! I don't care how long Dr. Bob, or anyone else, "white knuckles" it. It's not necessary.
When we come through those doors of AA, and we are told to keep coming, we simply do not have a defense against the first drink, and until we get one, we white knuckle it..... from meeting to meeting,? from speaker to speaker,? from message of hope to message of hope.........until we begin to take the actions that will bring us a defense against the first drink.......one day at a time.
? ?
As the Big Book states so well on page 95
"You will be most successful with alcoholics if
you do not exhibit any passion for crusade or reform.
Never talk down to an alcoholic from any moral or spiritual
hilltop; simply lay out the kit of spiritual tools for
his inspection. Show him how they worked with you.
Offer him friendship and fellowship. Tell him that if
he wants to get well you will do anything to help.
If he is not interested in your solution, if he expects
you to act only as a banker for his financial difficulties
or a nurse for his sprees, you may have to drop him
until he changes his mind. This he may do after he
gets hurts some more.
If he is sincerely interested and wants to see you
again, ask him to read this book in the interval. After
doing that, he must decide for himself whether he wants
to go on. He should not be pushed or prodded by you,
his wife, or his friends. If he is to find God, the desire
must come from within.
If he thinks he can do the job in some other way, or
prefers some other spiritual approach, encourage him
to follow his own conscience. We have no monopoly
on God; we merely have an approach that worked with
us. But point out that we alcoholics have much in common
and that you would like, in any case, to be friendly.
Let it go at that."

[Patsyd1]

Ohhhhhhhhhh in that case........MERRY CHRISTMAS CHARLIE!! lol

[samf]

Wishing the same for all of us!

Samf

[vegyman]

Merry Christmas! Everyone!

Paul

[zestymuz]

Yeah, I can relate to the 'White Knuckle' phenomenon right now. I wonder if it's a phase we have to go through in the early stages of recovery. Ie: instead of the wine, I'm drinking cranberry juice and soda. Some nights it isn't a problem. Some nights (like tonight) it's white knuckle flying.

[WolfM]

Dear Zestymuz,
White knuckling it also refers to do it alone. Once you enter the halls of AA, you never have to be alone again. All you have to do is pick up the phone. Or go to a meeting. Or pray. Or read the Big Book. Or call your sponsor. Get your mind off of the drink and get your mind into and on recovery.
We are "here' for you.
Wolf

[samf]

Think it is a good deal that you came to the site, kind of like looking for help, to me.
I didn't know...do you or are you able to attend meetings, or be around others who are recovering?
I was so thrilled to have people who were honestly there for me and wanted to help.
Yah...I felt nuts for quite a while...they would ride it out with me, and I was enabled to keep going another day, a day at a time.
I wasn't nutty all the time...just some days...and the nutty days gradually got farther and farther apart.
My favorite quick fix that worked for me and seemed safer, sometimes, than drinking, was ice cream! :o

Samf

[Carol87]

Yeah, I can relate to the 'White Knuckle' phenomenon right now. I wonder if it's a phase we have to go through in the early stages of recovery. Ie: instead of the wine, I'm drinking cranberry juice and soda. Some nights it isn't a problem. Some nights (like tonight) it's white knuckle flying.


zesty - first of all, WELCOME to AASL ... glad you found us.? I hope you will keep coming back so we can get to know you.? ?:)

Is "white knuckling" a phase ... it doesn't have to be ... it was for me BECAUSE I wasn't working the program of Alcoholics Anonymous even though I was going to meetings? ?::) ... one of the guys I go to meetings with calls it "being on the OUTSIDE of the bubble instead of on the INSIDE."? ?If you haven't already done so, I do hope you will seek help as suggested by both Wolf and Samf ... I find that help in the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous.? ?

And my substitute for drinking wine was gallons and gallons of Iced Tea!!? ? ;D

[zestymuz]

Thanks, Sam, Wolf and Carol87,

A lot of the AA terminology is new to me, so that 'white knuckle' clarification is really helpful. I'm calling the AA local today, there is one not too far from where I live. I do appreciate you guys being here, because it helps a lot. Sam, I can relate to the 'not so nutty' all the time thing. Some days I'm fine, not even thinking about drinking, then, WHAM! I also am noticing that my anxiety (Not so much about drinking, but a generalized feeling) is rising. Know that the alcohol has masked what is under there. THanks for being there guys!

[samf]

Hey, there, zestymuz! ;D

Big old hug!!

Good deal, on the meeting! Hope you go...must of us are real scared to go to a meeting, especially the first time...me, the first few times in ANY new meeting, sometimes!

Anyway...found out it was doable for me...it was my life I was talking about, and I am extremely selfish when it comes to wanting to live. ;D

Yes..my nutty stuff actually got better, as I started doing things that helped me...got into AA, started trying out this new way of living, etc....and what blew me away was how folks helped and how they just seemed to understand....that understanding and love still amazes me, every day.

I can relate to the anxiety thing, too, zesty...someone told me that it was like free-floating anxiety...nothing was really going on, but there it was, anyway...droev me NUTS! I told them I felt like Chciken Little...just knew the sky was going to fall in!! ( No pooper!!) Felt real shaky, that way. I survived the dang thing, but UGH!

...this'll make you laugh, maybe...I was so obsessive or whatver, I actually went to the library and found a copy of "Chicken Little", to find out how the story ended. To this day, I don't remember the ending, now. :-\

I think in retrospect it was probably all due to the effect of booze on my brain and some sort of withdrawl I don't understand.

But I know time kept going by, and it all got better.

It really helped me to have those AA's around me. I don't think I would have made it, without thier help, zesty.

Big old hug! Please hang in there. I know it got better for me.

Sam

[WannaB]

Hello? Really good input here.? Not to get into any debates as that is one of my character defects I find no longer necessary.? Its so much easier not to point out my way to someone and just share.

Anyway.. I was taught by some pretty seasoned old chaps, that the Rooms of A.A. were the Fellowship, and That Recovery was in the Steps.? I had to find out the hard way, as I dusted the seats off in A.A. with my bottom for many years 2 or more times a day, and was one very sick puppy.? ?I then heard somewhere it was a packaged deal.? So I dusted the seats off with my Bottom 1 time a day, and worked the Steps letting you know it every day...and yet I graduated into a a very old sick puppy.

I do have a question if anyone can direct me to the answer in our Big Book or 12 and 12.? Where does it say that we have to do meetings the rest of our lives?? Or for that matter meeting up to a certain point?? ?When I focused on the steps, lived the steps outside the rooms of Alcoholic's Anonymous my life took a drastic change.? I grew up, and was able to make my own decisions, and get a very diverse and happy life.? ?I still do service work a few times a month if the occasion rises, I do this to keep that promise for getting the promises.? However, A.A. became my drug of necessity not to drink or use anymore.? ?And while many may say what is wrong with that, for me it was death to a soul and body that needed to learn to change everything, including my codependency to any person place or thing including A.A.

When you go to meetings, and now the internet? and see the same people day in and day out posting or sharing its no wonder so many people have their doubts about what exactly the long term purpose is for people getting recovery in this manner. ? It is a rare day that I ever think of drinking or using yet for many many years my life has been happy , joyous and free without having to check myself with other recovering people, many who share things I really have no connection with other than wanting, or for lack of wanting going to A.A. for many reasons even loneliness.? When I do get a call and I am available I have no second thoughts about going out and helping even those who are just in a jam or full of the day after remorse and need a ride, or someone to vent on.? ?But this is a small part of my life today as I feel I have recovered as it does say in the Big Book, and being recovered living a full life.? ?I need food, I need money, I need shelter and clothing, I however do not need to sit in a room for a hour or hour and a half to stay well.? But it was not always that way , yet I got worse even in my best moments sharing from my vast knowledge all about me. I did not get into the internet thing but could see how it could happen. The people talking about meetings and the necessity online must be tireless doing the meetings and posting on a daily basis and living life to boot! I do not have enough hours in the day let alone doing a meeting then more at home. I do know that when I spend a lot of time in meetings and everyone and everything in my life was A.A. when I got honest, I was not the person who sat in those rooms and shared.

This is not to put anyone down as we all have to do what we have to do.? But I know many recovered Alcoholic's who now are meetingless and are living very good lives.? ?As a result of the 12 steps and using them in their lives daily.? ?Many people do this through hundreds of other healing processes and beliefs, not just A.A.? and they have not Fellowship for which they are committed to attend for the rest of their lives.? ?

I still hear meeting makers make it in these rooms and that is just not so.? There are no way to gauge statistics on those of us who by way of the rooms of A.A. and working the 12 steps are Alcohol and addiction free.? ? ?The program offers us these things to pick and choose , being as old as it is, its only obvious that they did not know all.? And the emphasis on meetings is not the meat and potatoes of A.A. nor a package deal as many have pr oven we do recover, and our meeting days are through, well one day at a time that is.

Thank you for the opportunity to share this with you.

[WolfM]

Dear Wannabe,
Thank you for your share. This is just one of the forums I visit regularly. I also visit one that deals with the community that I live in.
I visit one that deals with a running club I belong to. I also go to meetings. Of the running club. Of sport organizing groups I belong to. I do h ave a life outside of AA. But AA will always be a part of my life. The fellowship of AA is what led me to my relationship with the God of my understanding. The God who keeps me sober. The God whose Grace gave me the moment of clarity that made me look for help with my alcoholism. And early on I was told in order to keep it I had to give it away. I still believe that. And it has been a while since I took my last drink.
That is what I believe. Just for me.

[zestymuz]

Thanks for that hug, Sam!

I was talking to an NA member at work yesterday, and he was saying that for him, the fellowship had helped keep him clean for almost a year, and when he isolated, he started drugs again, and the 'addict' inside his brain convinced him he could be a user rather than an addict. Threw away all his clean days. He's back in the fellowship, and grateful for it at 6 days. For me, just being able to come to this site and read and post and relate is a great starter for face to face meetings.

[samf]

Hi, Zesty! You sound GOOD! ;D Am so glad!

Thanks for the thanks, too!!! :)

Hi, WannaB!

I personally go to meetings because, to me, my Higher Power speaks to me in meetings, as well as other places. If I am having a tough time dealing with life on life's terms, I may step up what I do in AA circles.

Also for me personally, I am a real good isolator, and I like being able to practice NOT doing that, in meetings...feels like a safe place to me...people seem to understand like no other place I know.

I do that outside of AA, too.

But just for me, I love being around recovering people.

Samf

[WannaB]

Thank you for the Welcome Sam and Wolf

Well Wolf I applaud you your a very busy man and that sure beats sucking on a bottle doesn't it?.?

Life is so full for me today that I do not know where the hours go, keeps me in line!!

For me and again just me, I got caught up in almost like my addictions, doing the same thing over and over again and for me saw that it was just another place for me to hide much like my bottle.? ?I got very opinionated, preachy, and had tunnel vision other than the program.? ?It was a safe place for me I guess but got to that jumpin off place they talk about in the Big Book, could not live without the program or with the program.? ?I am compulsive and obsessive on everything I do and have to stay away from to much time on any one thing.? Since doing this I have found so many other things to do in my life, sports being one , art another.? And I also love to travel which I use to seek out meetings or did not go if there was not one availbable.? Living stricky with program friends and places my life was just that all, program.? ?I know where I come from and A.A. saved my life which I will be eternally grateful.

Thank You for Replying.

[samf]

Boy, I can sure relate to the obsessive compulsive stuff...and is great to be able to just live, too...I sure remember having a lot of fun just being able to live life,for the first time!
Gosh, I even went bowling and also joined a gym and a church...what a hoot!
One of my still obsessive thingys asie from this maybe is one I have decided for today to just keep, and that is when I am learning something new, i go at it real hard, and then, when I am done, I am done, and it slows down. :o
Big hugs, anyway, Wannabe.
I liked your name, too.

Samf

[Patsyd1]

Hi Wannabe and welcome.?

Thats a great question that you asked Wannabe.

Where does it say that we have to do meetings the rest of our lives? Or for that matter meeting up to a certain point?
Nowhere in the Big Book does it state that we must do meetings the rest of our lives.? It does however state in many places throughout the Big Book, that meetings are vital, for our own sobriety and to help others to achieve sobriety...... we pass on freely, what was passed to us freely.



But this is a small part of my life today as I feel I have recovered as it does say in the Big Book, and being recovered living a full life. I need food, I need money, I need shelter and clothing, I however do not need to sit in a room for a hour or hour and a half to stay well.

Nope we don't have to sit in meetings for an hour or an hour and a half to stay well.? At our AA home group, we want to sit in meetings for an hour or an hour and a half, to make sure that those doors of AA remain open, so that we may reach out our hand to those who come through those doors of AA, much the same as we did..... lost, confused, hurting, and unable to choose to not drink........ and its WE who get to remember where we came from, how we got here and what it like now.? Thank you God.


I still hear meeting makers make it in these rooms and that is just not so.
Newcomers have no defense against the first drink, and meetings are vital in helping them to make it through this one day without a drink, until they take the actions of being guided through the 12 steps.

I know where I come from and A.A. saved my life which I will be eternally grateful.

At AA meetings, we pass on how grateful we are with actions,? by suiting up, showing up, and passing on the message of hope, so that we may stay sober and help others to achieve sobriety.




Page 15 in the Big Book:
We meet frequently so that newcomers may find the fellowship they seek. At these informal gatherings one may often see from 50 to 200 persons. We are growing in numbers and power.


Page 89 in the Big Book:
Practical experience shows that nothing will so
much insure immunity from drinking as intensive
work with other alcoholics. It works when other activities
fail. This is our twelfth suggestion: Carry this
message to other alcoholics! You can help when no
one else can. You can secure their confidence when
other fail. Remember they are very ill.
Life will take on new meaning. To watch people
recover, to see them help others, to watch loneliness
vanish, to see a fellowship grow up about you, to have
a host of friends -- this is an experience you must not
miss. We know you will not want to miss it. Frequent
contact with newcomers and with each other is
the bright spot of our lives.


Page 119 in the Big Book:
Still another difficulty is that you may become jealous
of the attention he bestows on other people, especially
alcoholics. You have been starving for his companionship,
yet he spends long hours helping other men and their families.
You feel he should now be yours.
The fact is that he should work with other people to
maintain his own sobriety



Page 159 in the Big Book:
A year and six months later these three had succeeded
with seven more. Seeing much of each other, scarce
an evening passed that someone's home did not shelter
a little gathering of men and women, happy in their
release, and constantly thinking how they might present
their discovery to some newcomer. In addition to these
casual get-togethers, it became customary to set
apart one night a week for a meeting to be attended
by anyone or everyone interested in a spiritual way of life.
Aside from fellowship and sociability, the prime object was to
provide a time and place where new people might bring their problems.



Page 162 in the Big Book:
Then, in this eastern city, there are informal meetings
such as we have described to you, where you may now
see scores of members.
There are the same fast friendships, there is the
same helpfulness to one another as you find among our
western friends. There is a good bit or travel between
East and West and we foresee a great increase in this
helpful interchange.
Some day we hope that every alcoholic who journeys
will find a Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous
at his destination. To some extent this is already true.

Some of us are salesmen and go about. Little clusters
of twos and threes and fives of us have sprung up in
other communities, through contact with our two larger
centers. Those of us who travel drop in as often as we
can.This practice enables us to lend a hand, at the
same time avoiding certain alluring distractions of the
road, about which any travelling man can inform you


Page 163 in the Big Book:
So our fellow worker will soon have friends galore.
Some of them may sink and perhaps never get up, but
if our experience is a criterion, more than half of those
approached will become fellows of Alcoholics Anonymous.
When a few men in this city have found themselves, and
have discovered the joy of helping others to face life again,
there will be no stopping until everyone in that town has had
his opportunity to recover -- if he can and will.
Still you may say: "But I will not have the benefit of
contact with you who wrote this book." We cannot be
sure. God will determine that, so you must remember
that your real reliance is always upon Him. He will
show you how to create the fellowship you crave.*
Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realize
we know only a little. God will constantly disclose
more to you and to us. Ask Him in your morning meditation
what you can do each day for the man who is
still sick. The answers will come, if your own house is
in order. But obviously you cannot transmit something
you haven't got. See to it that your relationship with
Him is right, and great events will come to pass for
you and countless others. This is the Great Fact for us.

[Jochua]

High. My name is josh and I have a huge problem. I have only been drinking for nine months but I have encountered serious problems. I have lost my ability to attend HighSchool, I have destroyed my friendships, lost my girlfriend, and I believe I have an ulcer but I don't know for sure because I don't have insurance. My mom told me our family was nothing but alcoholics but i didn't think it applied to a kid like me. I have a 3.8 accumulative GPA and have a full scholarship to the universityof wisconsin madison.But it caught me hard. And I can't stop. Whenever I stop, I urge it and Whenever I see it I drink it. I hate it but love it. What can I do. I need help. I can't get help from my friends because they are always drinking and I am scared that If I stop I will lose them. What should I do.
Josh :'(

[Carol87]

Josh ... welcome to AASL.? ?

Yes, alcoholism can affect a "kid like you" ... it has no boundaries, no age limits, no financial standards, no educational requirements!!? What it is is progressive as well as cunning, baffling and powerful.? ?

In addition to any help you might be able to get from school counselors, I suggest you call the number for Alcoholics Anonymous in your phone book ... tell the person who answers what you told us, get the times and places for meetings and then go.? ?Also let them know your age, there may be Young People's meetings where you would fit right in!? I know how scary it is to go to that first meeting but don't let fear stop you --- You have too much to lose and everything to gain. Don't lost the opportunity to go to college ... when you get there, I'm betting there will be AA meetings on campus.

Good luck and keep us posted ... we understand and we care ...There will be others coming along here who will also respond to you ...

[WannaB]

Hello Patsy, thank you for your reply.

As you are probably well aware all the above you have entered from the Big Book works for those who believe in it, and believe that its worked for you and others. We have to also however admit that many people do not find what they need in a 12 step program, nor does it mean that they are not going to get sober without a 12 step program. So we also know that unless someone is willing we do not have the power to change anyone. The 12 steps are not a cure all for everyone. So over the years I found out that the more I learned or thought I knew about the 12 steps the more I was actually trying to convert people to my way of thinking and I forgot that even the Big Book along with all my years did not have all the answers, and that the more I preached it , the more I was caught up in living strictly by it and for me, this was not where I wanted to be in my life be it A.A. or Religion. Which I felt there was little difference anymore. My family and friends were truly worried about me, as a obsessive compulsive person I put aside many other interests or their interests in lieu of the program always coming first. For me I hid inside of A.A. And I made it a good portion of my life, also pointing out to you passages, pages, books all to do with Alcoholics Anonymous. It was quite obvious to everyone else, to the point they just gave up. When I started to see this, people started to notice a big difference in me, and commented on how nice it was to hear me talk about something without some inference or buzz word of wisdom from the program.

I at one time insisted my significant other get into a program or I may leave..now that is pretty saturated with thinking this is the only way to get sober and have a marriage. What I choose to do, was my choosing no one Else's. So today although the program worked for me when i needed it. I have stopped preaching it as it actually also suggest over and over in the books we have. I just do not feel this is right or healthy. Its like saying there is one God and that never worked for me. I took what i needed and left the rest alone after years of trying it and years for finding out it made little difference in others lives as I am not that powerful, but made a drastic change in mine in a way that is not healthy for me or my family.

I still sponsor people, as I get calls and I will take them to their first meeting. I will work the steps simply without my advice and let them work for the person the way it does. I also take out any mention of God as I believe the book was written the best as it could be then, but has a lot of inconsistencies , things not even associated with alcohol addiction, and use the principals which teach us to grow up and live life without the character defects that held us hostage and others. It is a simple program complicated by people. It got way over the top with ego's , and today its preached not teach ed when you have to point out passage after passage that tells me that you believe that this is the only way to teach a newcomer that does not know A.A. from A.A.A. I would not want it to be the one who over and over put these things on someone who believed them as I pointed out my truth to them from one book.

There are some great things about the program, and there are things that have made it another addiction for many people in denial about it. I am grateful that I have learned, I have retained and I use some of the tools and gone on with my life. There were very few men and women back when this started and their joy over something that seemed to work for the hopeless drunk, was very high. So high its no wonder they wanted the world to know and advocated the growth of the fellowship. Times have changed and I doubt they would have ever expected it to go where it has. But they also did not expect other recovery programs to work either that feel they have a way out also. If they had I am sure they would have toned sounding like they were the only answer and the words Rarely...even though they wanted "Never". Rarely is not a truth. If you believe it is, then you should examine where you are in your recovery. Its biased, and almost cultism and we wonder why we are picked on so much. We have no idea what happens to the newcomers who do not return, there are not statistics, but there are statistics on A.A. and they are not great. Maybe if more people stopped relentlessly defending and trying to indoctrinate people that are so spun they do not even know what day it is, people would stick around a little longer. A.A. is not doing well. I went to many many meetings, and stop by them now and then, and the memberships are dwindling. 12 step calls, sponsoring all of it not the same anymore. People are getting more educated and many do not by the Higher Power thing, even though we say we are not religious we all no that is not true. There are few references to that we know just a little, and suggestions only but all in all, all through the Books we tell you without a Higher Power you will not make it.
In to days times it just does not fly. And many people that were A.A gurus are finding out that there is recovery after A.A. and I believe that is what is meant by life on life's terms not on A.A. 's terms. Just my opinion and again I thank A.A. as it did work for me. But I had to wake up and get a life outside of the program literally.

Thanks

[samf]

Hi, Josh!
Welcome.
I bet you everyone is here for you to talk to, if you keep posting...maybe we can be of some help.
I understand about being scared of losing your friends.
I know it probably isn't the way you are, but I was always pretty scared and lonely inside, and once I made some friends, I sure was scared of losing them. I didn't want to be alone.
The most important person I take care of is me. If I don't take care of me, nobody else will. And this is my only shot at life, that I know for sure about.
So my first priority for me is to take care of me. Otherwise, I have no life, and I don't have any way to be there for anybody else.
Anybody can be an alcoholic...you don't need ot be surprised at your age. I know one girl who was thriteen when she got help, and she needed help...she was for sure an alcoholic.
AA has a lot of young people now. And they do have thier own meetings, sometimes. Sometimes I guess it is easier for some people to have people thier own age around.
The way I see my drinking problem today is like this...I know I'm an alcoholic, because once I start drinking, I can't stop. Other people seem to be able to, but I can't.
I read that one out of ten people is like me and does that.
The other thing was when I wans't drinking, my mind was always thinking about drinking...wanting a drink...just that sense of ease that comes from taking a drink.
And other people seemed to drink and nothing bad happened to them. But bad stuff always happened when I drank!
If you look in the phone book in Madison or wherever you live, there might be a phone number for AA that you can call for help. Let me know how it turns out, if you want to!
Please, I hope you will take care of you and get the help you need to stop drinking. Ask questions. Send me a private message of I can help, or ask any of us, here, or in private mesaages....whatever you feel safer with.
And there maybe some programs that can help with not having insurnace. You can do a search on a search engine, or your university may have information...or your local health and human services, so you can have someone help you with your possible ulcer, too.
Josh...it is so good that you are asking for help. Please give a hollar iof there is anything I can do to help you.
People helped me get help.
Big hug. Take care of you, ok?

Samf

[WolfM]

Welcome Josh,

I remember when I was 17 I took a test called the 20 questions. At the end of the test it said if I answered yes to one of the questions I might be alcoholic, if I answered yes to two I probably was an alcoholic, and if I answered yes to three or more, I was definitely an alcoholic. I passed the test then and knew I was an alcoholic. But I continued to drink for another 17 years, got married, got divorced, got married, That was 18 years ago. I found AA and have been a part of it ever since. I have a progressive disease. It only gets worse. If you really are an alcoholic, the best place to find out is at an AA meeting. If you are an alcholic, be thankful you found out early. If you are not, then you can continue doing what you are doing and you will continue to get what you got.
Wolf M

[oberon]

I'd say any kind of white knuckle sobriety beats the hell out of red handed drunkeness at least your around to find out what ails you inthe one situation, hell the early members were near biting lumps out of the table to hang on and permanently anmazed they were doing so

[MIKEYBEEF]

I to struggle with the occasional anxiety or depression and honestly I think it can be somewhat of a physical thing,so for the past 3 weeks Ive been taking St.Johns Wort (900mg a day)its a non precription item that promotes a good mood and well being,and I've noticed that im starting to always feel up in this down world. ;D

[samf]

Think it is so cool that you have found a natural way to help deal with that.

Samf