RELAPSE TRIGGERS?

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

At a recent meeting I challenged a member who said something like this: "It's important to identify your relapse triggers. Knowing and remembering them is an important part of your recovery. It's your first defense against taking that next drink"

This absurd counsel comes again and again and I seem to be hearing it a lot more recently.

The BB clearly states in several places that we're powerless over alcohol and beyond human aid. It specifically addresses this particular nonsense in these two references:

"We are without defense? against the first drink." 24 (my emphases)
"Once more: The alcoholic at certain times has no effective mental defense against the first drink".42

Can anyone tell me what more I can do to point out the fallacy of this "relapse trigger" foolishness? Any idea of where this dangerous advice comes from?

[samf]

Willard, I figure you may already have an idea of where that comes from...and me, personally, I assume because I don't know that it comes from the treatment community, and can, in my opinion, be helpful to both alcoholics or drug addicts.

People who start looking for help don't always have all the information and experience you or someone else may have...they are just hurting and looking for help. I know you know this, Willard.

And I personally have to think that recovery houses, treatment centers, hospitals have helped an awful lot of alcoholics and addicts to at the very least dry out and have more information than they had, to start out with.

I know that there are people who actually were able to get sober without AA, and that AA isn't the ONLY program or way to recover. To me, it's the best thing/deal I ever found, aside from my Higher Power, whom I choose to call God today, and my Higher Power is the grace and enablement in my life.

I know people who got sober with a spiritual progam, too.

So not everyone does it through AA, to the best of my knowledge.

Something that strikes me, in the Big Book, is the idea of that strange mental blank spot...that's what I identify with when you shared about no effective mental defense against that first drink.

Self knowledge for me, didn't get it. A code of morals or philosophy of life didn't get it for me.

It's those strange mental blank spots that potentially kick my hiney.

But that's just me, an alcoholic who maybe thinks too much sometimes.

No matter how much I try to figure this deal out (AA), I just can't. Another reason it is all a God deal, for lack of a better phrasing, today, for me.

Just my opinion, thoughts, etc.

Samf

[fishdocdon]

Phantom, I would suggest that "morbid reflection" trying to find all triggers would be difficult and a terrible waste of time. Keeping it simple stress the daily reprieve contingent on SPIRITUAL FITNESS.

TOO MANY NEED SOMEONE OR SOMETHING TO BLAME ACTIONS ON. I guess it's the water.

I try what the early AA's did : morning meditation, daily reading, daily contact with another drunk

simple and it works for me for quite a while now----and a good deal of peace in my life

Good luck --- but worriers NEED FODDER FOR WORRY

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

This is so true: "...they are just hurting and looking for help. I know you know this, Willard."

I do know it. Which is way I wonder we don't give them the unvarnished truth. "Relapse triggers" and all the other "practical suggestions" should be promoted for what they are: temporary means to help postpone drinking until the sufferrer can get into the steps. To promote such "suggestions" as a part of the revovery program? is to mislead.


And there is no doubt that there are other ways to get and stay sober. But, there's only one AA recovery program.? When a person comes to AA, isn't that what sould be discussed: the AA program of recovery? Knowing the AA solution - we share it, and it alone. The afflicted can then decide what course of action is best for them; either AA or other options.

The confusion comes when the newcomer hears opinon, treatment center options, recovery house dogma and all the rest as part of the AA recovery program. They don't know any better. Our job is to help them separate the AA program from the others; the genuine from the counterfeit.

I know you know that, sam.

[Carol87]

This reminds me of my experience with cancer treatment ten years ago.? ?Had I contracted cancer, say ten years prior to when I did, the treatment I received would have been more extensive and dramatic.? ?Thanks to extensive research in the field, I was able to get injections for low blood counts and return to work rather than having to spend days in the hospital getting transfusions.? ?BUT the treatment I received may not work for someone else, especially if they have a different type cancer.

I?m also reminded of my own personal spiritual journey.? ?I happen to be Protestant and have at least four translations of the Bible at my disposal.? ?I have found one that is very easy for me to understand that works for me.? That does not mean the other translations are wrong, it simply means what I just said ? I found ONE that works for me.? ?It is my personal opinion that no Bible translation is wrong; each person needs to find the one that is worded in such a way that works best for them, the same as they need to find a means of worship that works best for them, whether it be Protestant, Catholicism, Judaism, or something different.?

I?m also reminded of a situation in my own family where the father is having a good deal of trouble getting and staying sober in spite of two DUI?s, time in jail, probation and follow-up treatment.? ?I would much rather that he stay away from whatever triggers his drinking than to watch the pain and tears of his family, especially his children.?

My question is -- Why is it OK to make progress in other aspects of life but not in the treatment of alcoholism?? ?To answer your specific question Willard about what you can do?? ?For me the answer would be not play God but rather pray for understanding, acceptance and direction.? ? And then get out of God?s way so that He can do His work.? ?His watch is not necessarily on the same time zone as mine.? ?Further, I was told very early in recovery, and I had this phrase taped to my desk area, ?Carol, there is a God and it isn?t you!?

I definitely agree that this is a spiritual program, however, there are a lot of other words in the Big Book that we shouldn't overlook, among them --? suggestive only, more will be revealed, spiritual progress not spiritual perfection, suggested as a program of recovery, open mindedness, sometime quickly, sometime slowly etc.?? And -- just as there are different ways to treat cancer; just as there are individual ways to lead a spiritual life; there are different ways to get sober and stay sober.

Just one alcoholic?s opinion ?? that doesn't say you all have to agree with me.? ?Let's just remember to be treat everyone with respect and dignity regardless of his/her own? individual beliefs. ?

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

I offer no argument nor render any opinion to whatever anyone chooses to believe. Whatever authority a person chooses, the BB, the 12x12, whatever...is their choice. Say what you will.

Here is what the BB says on page 24 : "The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so called will power becomes practically nonexistent. We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago. We are without defense against the first drink."

"I would much rather that he stay away from whatever triggers his drinking.." implies there's an identifiable "something" that triggers drinking. When, if fact, there isn't. Alcoholics drink alcohol because they have lost the power of choice. If we had that choice - we wouldn't need the program of recovery! But, we lost the ability to choose at some point in time. When that happened, we bacame defenseless against drinking. NO DEFENSE, zip, zero, zilch, nada, nothing! . Relapse triggers, remembering last drunks, going to meetings, NOTHING.

So, even if I identify every single thing that might trigger my drinking, what difference can it possible make it this is true: ]"We have lost the power of choice".

BTW, I'm not trying to "play God". That's laughable. Where did that come from? Seems that anytime I mention anything about the BB compared to inane slogans that contradict it, I get a lecture on "playing God" or tolerance!

I really don't care what people believe - really. But, from time to time, it seems like ya'll get stuck in sentimentality and forget there's only one AA program and that the whole idea is to get well...period. This sickness is brutal and there's only one solution:
From 25: "...and nothing less: That we have had deep and effective spiritual experiences" That's it "and nothing less". Anything else is groupthink psychobabble.


And finally, I know I get the same number of people sober that I cause to get drunk: zero. I also know I don't mislead anyone searching for the solution. Others do that quite well - and on a regular basis -? and justify it in the name of "tolerance".
(This statement isn't directed at anyone specific - don't get your panties in a wad. On the other hand, if the shoe fits....)

No debates. I know the standard answers - I have them memorized. I end as I began "I offer no argument nor render any opinion to whatever anyone chooses to believe. Whatever authority a person chooses, the BB, the 12x12, whatever...is their choice. Say what you will.

Just remember: Believe what you will - you're betting your life.

[angussdundee]

When I catch the intoxicating whiff of wild honeysuckle in the air I always think of the back garden of the house I grew up in with the song thrush's nest hidden deep inside the twisted branches of the woodbine. And when I hear accordion music I automatically think of my dear Father who passed away two years ago and I have to steady myself for fear of crying. If I listen long enough to the protest songs of Pete Seager, Joan Baez, Bob Dylan and the Scotch and Irish rebel songs, I can still picture my brothers and sisters standing around the piano and singing as my Dad accompanies them in tune.
Now I don't know about 'relapse triggers' but I sure as hell do have emotional triggers because I have feelings. I believe God reinstated my feelings when he took away the obsession to drink. Any of the above flashbacks can stimulate emotions within me. So I'm under no illusion that I'm immune to these subconscious memories and psychological ambushes any more than I am to alcohol or drug memories. Therefor I remain vigilant. The most common reasons for individuals inviting relapse that I have come across are; by getting cocky and failing to maintain the principals set out in the twelve step program of recovery.

anguss.

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

I have recovered from alcoholism and am free to enjoy the full range of emotions.

"...the problem has been removed. It does not exist for us . We are neither cocky nor are we afraid . That is our experience. That is how we react so long as we keep in fit spiritual condition."

How's this for an encouraging line - it's often overlooked: "Seemingly he could not drink even if he would. God had restored his sanity." That's the power of God: "he could not drink, even if he would"? Why be fearful and afraid?

The problem has been removed from me, I am neither cocky, not am I afraid. I AM IMMUNE. The only vigilance I need maintain is to stay in fit spiritual condition. Fortunately., there's an effective way to do that.

[Patsyd1]

Page 57 in the Big Book:
Save for a few brief moments of temptation
the though of drink has never returned; and at such times
a great revulsion has risen up in him. Seemingly he could
not drink even if he would. God had restored his sanity.

What is this but a miracle of healing? Yet its elements
are simple. Circumstances made him willing to
believe. He humbly offered himself to his Maker --
then he knew.


Even so has God restored us all to our right minds.
To this man, the revelation was sudden. Some of us grow
into it more slowly. But He has come to all who have
honestly sought Him.

When we drew near to Him He disclosed Himself to
us!





Page 85 in the Big Book:

It is easy to let up on the spiritual program of action
and rest on our laurels. We are headed for trouble if
we do, for alcohol is a subtle foe. We are not cured of
alcoholism. What we really have is a daily reprieve
contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition.
Every day is a day when we must carry the vision
of God's will into all of our activities. "How can I best
serve Thee, Thy will (not mine) be done." These are
thoughts which must go with us constantly. We can
exercise our will power along this line all we wish. It
is the proper use of the will.

Willard, I serve God, and not another member of AA, whether that AA member understands the word "triggers" or not.

I can best serve God, by passing on the message of hope.? How is challenging any newcomer in the halls of AA, carrying the vision of God's Will into our daily activities?

Page 95 in the Big Book:
Unless your friend wants to talk further about himself,
do not wear out your welcome. Give him a chance
to think it over. If you do stay , let him steer the conversation
in any direction he like. Sometimes a new
man is anxious to proceed at once, and you may be
tempted to let him do so. This is sometimes a mistake.
If he has trouble later, he is likely to say you rushed
him. You will be most successful with alcoholics if
you do not exhibit any passion for crusade or reform.
Never talk down to an alcoholic from any moral or spiritual
hilltop; simply lay out the kit of spiritual tools for
his inspection. Show him how they worked with you.
Offer him friendship and fellowship. Tell him that if
he wants to get well you will do anything to help.?


The word "triggers" from my understanding came from detoxes and rehabs.? These newcomers bring into the halls of AA what they were taught and shown in detoxes and rehabs.? Its every AA's? responsibility to pass on the message of hope from the Big Book, through our own experience, strength and hope.? ?Those who are new to the halls of AA, from a detox or a rehab, bring with them what they were told.? ?Its futile to talk down to another alcoholic, particularly a newcomer.

Passing on the message of hope is so that we may stay sober, and help another alcoholic to achieve sobriety.?


It was shared with this alkie when I was a newcomer, that those who choose to challenge me from their own spiritual hilltop, in reality, had nothing to give, and to stay away from them, and stick with those who were demonstrating that it is one alcoholic helping another, and not one alcoholic looking to challenge newcomers who have no defense against the first drink.

Yes the problem has been removed, and the problem was never in that bottle of booze, the problem was me and my spiritual condition.? What WE really have is a daily reprieve contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition.?

Anyone knows the difference between a demand and a request.

May I suggest or better yet request that you take an honest look at the way that you treat others, particularly newcomers, is it really the way it is layed out in the Big Book??

Because reality is Willard, the way that WE treat others, particularly newcomers.... says much much more about who WE are, then it ever says about who they are.

Have a good day Willard

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

"May I suggest or better yet request that you take an honest look at the way that you treat others, particularly newcomers, is it really the way it is layed out in the Big Book? " The only refererence I ever have is the BB - without any "feel good" spin. (Weren't you the one quoting the BB out of context in an earlier thread? Oh, that's right, it was you.) Would you reinforce the information brought in from the treatment centers, et al? Or, would you speak the truth? You can't "love the alcoholic" to sobriety.

Sentimentailty won't do the job if you would believe the good doctor: "Frothy emotional appeal seldom suffices. The message which can interest and hold these alcoholic people must have depth and weight."

I treat alcoholics with dignity and respect, especially newcomers. I do that by telling them the harsh realityof the truth. to do otherwise is to mislead them - regardless of whom you claim to serve.

I note, as always, that when no reasonable rebuttal is possible these responses turn to commentary about me. What does that say about who you are Patsy?

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

"Its every AA's? responsibility to pass on the message of hope from the Big Book, through our own experience, strength and hope."

You decide what every AA's responsibility is? What arrogance. And what about sharing our experience and knowledge as page 19 suggests? We connect with ESH; we share the solution with EK.

Aand here: "It was shared with this alkie when I was a newcomer, that those who choose to challenge me from their own spiritual hilltop, in reality, had nothing to give..." Funny, I was told to challenge everything: that when trying to hold on to old ideas, the result was nil. That's zero Patsy. And that's from the BB, what's your source re:"spiritual hilltop"?

Here's a quote from another great book: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

[samf]

"I know you know that, sam."

Willard...I apologize...can see that was a cruddy thing to say to you....the, "I know you know that, Willard."

"The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so called will power becomes practically nonexistent. We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago. We are without defense against the first drink."

The above is one that got me, personally, when I was going through the Big Book, early on. I could definitely relate to that, for sure. (It had been my personal experience.)

Another was what I shared about strange mental blank sopts.

To me, they both are kind of a one in the same thing.

Sam

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

Sam, I know that some of what I say is inflammatory. I almost invite emotional response and outrage. Most of the time it's because I challenge strongly held beliefs. My sponsor told me that the main problem with the alcoholic centered in his mind. He challenged me to defend the ideas and beliefs that controlled my thought life. If I couldn't support them with evidence they were true - with no basis or authority other than my own stubborn insistence? - then why did I hold them so strongly, he would ask? He pointed out I had to let go of my old ideas or the result would be nil. To do that successfully, I had to challenge those dearly held ideas; I discovered they were nothing more, in most cases, than my opinion. I was so stubborn and arrogant I wouldn't accept any authority other than my own. It was a tough pill to swallow as I thought highly of my intellect.

What I have found is that when a person's long held beliefs are indefensible and the belief is challenged, that person becomes very distressed. They strike out. Since they have no basis for the belief other than their opinion, they get personal. I'm so used to it I barely notice anymore - other than to point ot out.

The highest compliment I can pay a person is, "You made me think." When I started challenging my thinking, I began to see how distorted it was. Throwing out the ideas of a lifetime's accumulation is difficult. Were it not for the steps, I wouldn't have made it. The frothy, emotional appeal? didn't work for me.

While I accept your apology, none is needed.? I agree with your assessment. The fact is we are without defense against the first drink and have therefore lost the power of choice. To not challenge others, who promote the idea that vigilence is a deterrent of drinking, is criminal.

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

CORRECTION

"...vigilence is a deterrent of drinking..." SHOULD BE

"...vigilence is a deterrent to drinking..."

[WolfM]

Dear Friends,
Up to today, May 8, 2006, 10:50 pm, I have not found it necessary to take a drink (since December of 1987). Therefore I do not know if I have any relapse triggers.
However, because I do not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it, I remember my last drink, because it reminds me what brought me into this fellowship.
The Grace of God is what keeps me here. But I found that in this fellowship as well.
Wolf M

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

HEARD AT A MEETING

Member one: "I've not found it necessary to take a drink for over ten years!"

Member two: "Why, how can you say that? I saw you stumbling out of the tavern just last week! You were drunk as a sailor!"

Member one: "That's true - but it wasn't necessary!"? :D :D

Remember, not remember, relapse triggers, no triggers,it's all groupthink to me; I have recovered. My only action today is to make sure I stay in fit spiritual condition.

[WolfM]

Dear Willard,
I agree in the staying spiritually fit. How is the way I stay spiritually fit and the way you stay spiritually fit different. I go to meetings. I study the Big Book. I am sponsored. I sponsor. I work the steps. I stay sober, with the Grace of God and the fellowship of AA. Does that make me guilty of group think? Does that make you and I a group? Do we not strive for spiritual progress and not spriritual perfection?

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

It's not for me to say that you, or anyone else, is "guilty" of anything.

Any philosophy that promotes God - PLUS anything else: meetings, etc-? is contrary to the BB position.

If one is beyond human aid, then nothing can be accomplished by human effort, including: meetings, sponsoring, reading, hoping and/or wishing - all accomplish nothing.

Ironically, it is in meetings we discover this. For meetings are indeed important. They keep the recovered alcoholic focused on that which keeps him sober: the grace of God - and that alone. Anything else is groupthink.

And, for the record, the BB states we claim spiritual progress, not strive for it. A small difference perhaps, but an important one nevertheless. The meaning of the phrase is changed completely by that substitution.

A little change here, a little change there - one day you end up believing something you do - some activity - is instrumental in keeping you sober. You have become a victim of groupthink.

[Carol87]

Just a reminder of what Charlie posted in an earlier thread.? ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The intended objective of AASL is that it will be a place for alcoholics to share their experience, strength, and hope with each other, especially the newcomer. It was never intended to be a debating forum to dissect the Big Book, or any other aspect of Alcoholics Anonymous. Neither was it intended to be a vehicle for individualized posts direct to other forum members, nor is it intended that one person monopolize any given forum. In most meetings I?ve seen, any member who tries to monopolize the meeting is quickly hushed in some way, shape or form to allow others to share in their own way ? it?s critical to their sobriety to have their choices and options.

What I?m trying to say is that although we appreciate your enthusiasm for the Big Book and your interpretation from what you have been given, it is not necessarily the way everyone has been taught nor is it the way that will work for everyone. We would all have very closed minds if we thought MY way (or interpretation) was the only way. Too many people new to sobriety can be pushed away by an overbearing or over enthusiastic approach ? especially by posts that are tiring to read because they are difficult to understand or too wordy.

Challenging every word, phrase and sylable uttered is not a part of my sobriety nor that of most here.? It is certainly not the intent of the site. I may agree or disagree with some things in life.... but I certainly don't need to challenge them - Live and let live.

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

So, would I be safe in assuming that this applies to me, as well as others: "...allow others to share in their own way" ?

Concepts are built on words, phrases, sentences and paragraphs. Changing a word can change the meaning of a paragraph. I do not interpret - ever. To be correctly understood the BB must be read from the point of view of the authors and their message, not how I - or anyone else - "spins" it to match their point of view.

I could not disagree more vigorously with this statement: "...it?s critical to their sobriety to have their choices and options." To the contrary, It is critical - vital - that the alcoholic realize they have run out of choices and options. The unrecovered alcoholic: "...had but two alternatives: One was to go on to the bitter end, blotting out the consciousness of our intolerable situation as best we could; and the other, to accept spiritual help."

It is easy for newcomers to confuse the support, counsel and comfort that members offer them as a solution to their problem. While important, it's not the solution; someone has to point out the harsh realities of alcoholism.

As for being too? wordy, check out the length of my posts? - they are short and to the point.

As for being tiring due to being difficult to understand - I'll work on that. ;)

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

Controversy creates friction, friction produces heat, heat brings the light, light illuminates the truth.

I can see where controversy would be dangerous to the counterfeit.

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

Charlie -
I have searced every link and this is all I find:

"We would like to welcome you to AASoberLiving.com!

Our purpose is to carry the message to other alcoholics! Whether you are
new to recovery, or been sober a while, please feel free to grab a cup of
coffee, sit back in your chair and share your experience, strength and
hope with us. This site is neither approved nor endorsed by Alcoholics
Anonymous. We are just a group of sober drunks trying to carry the
message of recovery to each other!!

To the left, you will see links to other areas on our site. We will be
updating our site often, so be on the lookout for new links and new
areas where recovery will be shared!!

We welcome all who come here and hope that you find a home at AASL!!"

What am I missing?

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

Charlie - in case you missed it, I'm always up for a debate! :D