Confusing slogans?

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

At some point, acronyms became popular. Their usual use is to help us remember a phrase or slogan by a clever arrangement of the first letters of the phrase or quote. I don't know when, or why, but one mentioned frequently is HOW: Honesty, openness and willingness.

It's another of the AA slogans that puzzles me. Why? Because the letters have been rearranged; it's written in the book as "Willingness, honesty and openness", or WHO.

So, notwithstanding the fact that it's out of order from the way it's written, isn't it just as important - if not more so - to remember WHO before how? (Look at the sequence of the steps.)

[samf]

"Willingness, honesty and openmindedness are the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable."

(Big Book - Fourth Edition - Page 568)

Hi, Willard. I don't feel very critical about how the letters are arranged. It has helped a lot of people remember those three words...I know it helped me remember. And just for me, the way it was stated at the time, it kept pointing me in the direction of the steps...like "how to finds a power greater that will solve my drink problem?" It's in the steps, they seemed to be saying to me.

But I can see where "who" could point me either to me (as in I am powerless, my life is unmanagebale, I am nuts"...etc.), or to a Higher Power.

I don't know why they came out that way.

Your mind works better than mine, I think. When you stated "look at the sequence of the steps", what were you trying to say?

Samf

[Carol87]

This is from "Spiritual Experience" found in the back of the BB.? As Sam pointed out, it is page 568 in the fourth edition.? Page 570 in the third edition.? The paragraph that precedes WHO says:

"Most emphatically we wish to say that any alcoholic capable of honestly facing his problems in the light of our experience can recover, provided he does not close his mind to all spiritual concepts.? He can only be defeated by an attitude of intolerance or belligerent denial.

It further states:

"We find that no one need have difficulty with the spirituality of the program.? Willingness, honesty and open mindedness are the essentials of recovery.? But these are indispensable."
_________________________________________________
Actually, I do like WHO but I'm far more concerned about the concepts than I am about the order they are presented in an acronym. ? For ME, it was essential that I got honest with myself about my alcoholism before I could even think about willingness or open mindedness.? Especially since closed mindedness was far more familiar to ME than the concept of open mindedness.? Willingness ... well, sure I was willing IF you agreed with me.? Until I got honest, I DID have problem with the spirituality part of the program which is essential to my recovery.?

JMHO

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

As to "look at the sequence of the steps" in regards to WHO instead of HOW:

Step two tells us WHO we came to believe would restore us to sanity.
Step three tells us to WHO(m) it is we turn our will and lives.
Step four begins the work of HOW we do that - three being nothing more than a decision.

As to the honesty, I still maintain that Step one is more about recognition than honesty. If we look on page 24 we see in the first paragraph: "At a certain point in the drinking of every alcoholic, he passes into a state where the most powerful desire to stop drinking is of absolutely no avail.? This tragic situation has already arrived in practically every case long before it is suspected." (My emphasis.)

Now, here's my point: if we became alcoholic before we know it, we must first recognize the condition before we can admit it - the honesty.

My struggle with the first step was not the honesty of admission, it was the discovery of my condition. . Once I knew, the admission was relatively easy

If I don't know I'm alcoholic, I can say - with all honesty - that I'm not. First, recognition - then honesty (admission)

[vegyman]

The only requirement for membership is an honest desire to stop drinking.
page xiv / FORWARD

We have to have an honest desire to stop drinking first. Then had to get honest with ourselves if we were alcoholic or not. That why the book says to go out a try drinking and stop abruptly. If you can do that, then maybe your not alcoholic.

The first thing is I had to get honest with myself. The whole program is about being honest. Honest with myself, honest with my sponsor, with my ES&H's and with the newcomer. Most important is honest with the God of my understanding.

Secondly I needed to have an open mind, a different outlook, a spiritual approach to my problems.

Thirdly. Willingness comes in where we make a? Commitment to total change.

If 99% of the people say HOW and 1% says WHO, I'll believe what I think the Big Book says, LOL.

HOW is not about the steps, but as in HOW it works!? what it takes to grasp the whole program from the steps to the concepts, and how to live a sober life.

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. I believe that's stated in the third tradition. There is no requirement to admit we are powerless over alcohol. In order to get honest with oneself about alcoholism, one must first recognize that one is an alcoholic. I can't admit - with honesty or without - unless I know.

I'm on my third trip. Each of those times I came to AA I had an honest desire to stop drinking. The first two I didn't recognize the truth. I wasn't able to see I was an alcoholic and therefore unable to be honest about my condition.

Semantics - you bet. The meaning of words.

WHO is not about the steps, but is most definitely about WHO keeps me sober. The steps enable me to have the spiritual awakening. The program is described in the BB, "? ?Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery." I find no mention of concepts, although there is mention of a "blueprint for living". That blueprint is not the program. The program is the steps.

I'll believe the BB , as written. I look at these things literally; no spin of any kind.

99% of people once thought the earth was flat.

[vegyman]

What seemed at first a
flimsy reed, has proved to be the loving and powerful
hand of God. A new life has been given us or, if you
prefer, "a design for living" that really works. Page 28 / BB

"a design for living"

The alcoholics Anonymous program is based on the 3 legacy's, Recovery (the 12 steps) Unity (the traditions) and Service. (the 12 concepts) Inorder for AA to stay alive, we need Honesty, open mindness and willingness.

[Carol87]

And we were doing so well!? ?

Please .. Let's not stray from what this thread is about, specifically statements on the last page of "Spiritual Experience" in the BB ... "does not close his mind to all spiritual concepts" --? Willingness, honesty and open mindedness ... as vegyman pointed out .. the HOW of how this program works.? ?No matter what order you put them in, all three are indispensable.? ?Emphasis mine.? ?

To the newcomer ... please don't let this thread confuse you ... work your program with your sponsor, it will all fall into place.

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

Many years ago I had a disagreement with my ex-wife about the meaning of a word. I looked it up and told her what the dictionary said.

She then replied (I'm not making this up):
"Why is it that the dicitonary always agrees with you?" She went on,

"I don't care what it says. I know what I believe and I won't change my mind....even if the facts say otherwise."

She died of untreated alcoholism several years ago. I'm beginning to believe she's been reincarnated!

Carol is absolutely correct; newcomers or others: read what it says - it is what it is - decide for yourself.

As for any more on this from me? Its too spooky to think I'm debating a ghost! I give up.

[samf]

Hi, Willard. Thank you for explaining what you meant...for answering my question.

It made sense to me. Sometimes I need to see what someone is saying, in order to understand, so I've learned to ask sometimes.

I really appreciated having the doctor's opinion to read...think the pages should be numbered so they don't get skipped over (still sick, trying to change stuff...LOL!)...and am glad for There Is A Solution, and More About Alcoholism...Bill's Story...and so on. The more I read the first few chapters especially, the more I could see the alcoholism in me.

And the more I am around AA, the more I end up hearing and learning from other people...kind of like I had things spoon fed to me that I couldn't understand or "get". So I am just progressively grateful.

I don't understand everything today, but am willing to learn.

Thank you, Carol, too...I do need to remember, for me, that all three are indespensible.

And thank you, Paul. I learned "heard" something I could use, from everyone.

Samf

[WolfM]

Hello Freinds,

You all make very valid points about what the acronyms mean and what the sequence should be.
Just looking at the words, without thinking about the acronym, or what it stands for:
WHO personalities
HOW principles

Just another perspective.
Wolf M

[Carol87]

Wolf! Good to see you ... don't stay away so long next time!

I really like what you said ...

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

"Put the plug in the jug", "If you don't remember your last drunk you haven't had it", or my personal favorite, "Just don't drink one day at a time ."

Now, if the BB states - ever so clearly - and in italics, "The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so-called will power becomes practically nonexistent. We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago. We are without defense against the first drink The almost certain consequences that follow taking even a glass of beer do not crowd into the mind to deter us." (from page 24)

Now, if I've lost the power of choice and I'm without defense against the first drink, how can I" put the plug in the jug", or "just not drink one day at a time" (with or without my ass falling off)?

And if the suffering and humiliation of even a week or month ago dosesn't deter me, what purpose does "remembering my last drunk" serve? Really, can remembering my last payday guarantee me my next check?

If I could stop by using any of those methods, why would I need AA? I mean, if I could have done any of that, I wouldn't be here! I would have just "put the plug in the jug", "stopped drinking" and gone on about my business"one day at a time".

So, if they don't produce the desired result, why are they repeated so much?

[vegyman]

If I could put the plug in the jug,,,, I wouldn't be in AA. LOL.

There are many "self-help" slogans that just don't work, most likely made up in recovery houses, Our program is about powerlessness and to humbly ask our higher powers for help..

How do you idenify "self-help" slogans? Any slogan that suggest your control over alcohol has returned.

[WolfM]

Dear Vegyman,
I have been very busy of late. Commuting between islands and overseeing several projects that go, in turn, from absolutely nothing happening, to everything happening all at once. I have been able to go to more meetings here (in Saipan we have 5 per week, here there are 13 at just the group that I am using as my temporary home group).
I pop in here to see what is going on but I have not had much time to stop and get actively involved in the online forums.

Willard, on remembering my last drunk.? I actually DO remember my last drunk and the horrible morning after when I reached out for help and the hand of AA was there. I do not ever want to go back to that feeling again.

I have heard it in meetings and read it in "Living Sober", to think the first drink through. I actually do that (and not just with alcohol) but behavior that will lead me to do something that is not right.
If I take that first drink I will take another one. Then another, then a bottle, then I will black out and eventually I will lose my family, my job, my house, my car, my self respect, and eventually my life.? So I do not think I will take that first drink.

Why are there slogans? Why are there jingles in advertising?? To help people remember. To make things simple. If I do this, I will get this.? If I do that I will get that.
Of course I am only speaking for myself because I try to lead an uncomplicated life. A simple life.
I hope I am not oversimplifying this.? But as I have told people that I am trying to help.? This is a simple program.? But it is not easy.
It takes hard work.
Wolf M

[vegyman]

Hi Wolf,
Great to hear from you again. April 6th I'll have a full year of retirement. With not having AA here in Gensan, when I have any thought about drinking, I just say, "thank you God" ,and the thought is gone. Theres no need to fight myself all day long that way, LOL.

Paul

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

"Acceptance is the answer to all my problems today"

Here's one guaranteed to twist you around the axle. First we pray for? "courage to change the things I can". But, if acceptance is the answer to all problems, then we don't need that part of the Serenity Prayer - right?

Edited Serenity Prayer" God grant me the serenity to accept everything, because that's the answer to all my problems today. I therefore don't need the courage to change the things I can, nor the ability to know the difference. "

Sounds like a recipe to completely ignore or avoid all responsibility: no matter what happens, I'll just accept it.

But, how can we get around this little quote from the BB on page 42, "Quite as important was the discovery that spiritual principles would solve all my problems"? (Another nice quote, on page 52, reinforces this one.)

So, what is the answer to all my problems? The "acceptance solution" slogan or the BB reliance on spiritual principles?

[vegyman]

"Acceptance is the answer to all my problems today"

I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or situation as being exactly the way it is suppose to be at this moment. Nothing, absolutely nothing happens in God's world by mistake."

Until I accepted that I of all people was an alcoholic, what good would the Big Book and spiritual prinicples do for me.
In accepting people for who they are, I've learned that I cannot change them, they can only change themselves. Even with you, Willard. I accept you as you are and have no problems with you. I just don't believe in the same way as you and I point it out.

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

Accepting that one is an alcoholic doesn't begin to encompass acceptance as being the answer to all problems. That statement is merely a "smoke screen", avoiding the question. Which is, do we need the second half of the Serenity Prayer if we believe that acceptance is the answer to all our problems?

What you think of me and whether you accept me the way I am or not is irrelevant. Does the BB stand on it's own, or not? If the slogan contradicts what's in the BB why is it quoted so much? The BB is either right, or it's not.

Is acceptance the answer to all? your problems today? Or,? have you discovered that spiritual principles will solve all your problems. You can't have it both ways.

I didn't specifically ask for vegyman's opinion, but I'm not surprised I got it. Nor that he disagrees with the BB - that's not uncommon for him. It was a general question to all.

[Carol87]

Willard, we are all entitled to our opinions/thoughts.? No one says we have to all agree.? If you don't want to know how the rest of us think/feel, why do you ask the questions?? ????? ?And didn't we already have this "acceptance" discussion?? ?Why are we doing it again?? ?:-\

I agree with Vegy's post ... I couldn't have said it better!? ? Thank you Paul ...

To the newcomer:? ?The statement that Willard is referring to is in the Big Book in the personal stories -- see page 449 in the third edition; page 417 in the fourth edition.? ?It is topic at many AA meetings and is contained in a personal story that has helped many of us in recovery, including myself.? ?And one that will probably be pointed out to you by your sponsor and others in recovery.? I suggest you work with your sponsor and your home group to determine what YOU believe.? ?

The last page of the story also says: "Acceptance is the key to my relationship with God today.? I never just sit and do nothing while waiting for Him to tell me what to do.? Rather, I do whatever is in front of me to be done, and I leave the results up to Him; however it trurns out, thats God's will for me."

[vegyman]

Thats right, Carol. "Acceptance is the key to my relationship with God today. I never just sit and do nothing while waiting for Him to tell me what to do. Rather, I do whatever is in front of me to be done, and I leave the results up to Him; however it trurns out, thats God's will for me."

I do that everyday, and I'll see if it God's will that AA be here in General Santos City.

Note; I have never disagreed with what the Big Book says, in fact I've been called a Big Book guru many times, LOL.

GOD, grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change
Courage to change the things I can and the Wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardship as the pathway to peace.

Taking, as He did, this sinful world as it is,
not as I would have it.

Trusting that He will make all things right if I
surrender to His Will;

That I may be reasonably happy in this life,
and supremely happy with Him forever in
the next.

Amen


GOD, grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change
Once I accept the way things are, it is no longer a problem,

Courage to change the things I can and the Wisdom to know the difference.
then God gives me the courage to do what his will is for me.


Is acceptance the answer to all your problems today? Or, have you discovered that spiritual principles will solve all your problems. You can't have it both ways.

Just as you your self stated in so many words that you had to accept the fact that you were an alcoholic first willard.

I'm on my third trip. Each of those times I came to AA I had an honest desire to stop drinking. The first two I didn't recognize the truth. I wasn't able to see I was an alcoholic and therefore unable to be honest about my condition.

Acceptance goes even father. One first has to accept a higher power, then accept living on spiritual principles, so yes, you can have it both ways, in fact if one cannot accept spiritual principle, then how is one going to live them?

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

It is still amazing to me that no one will say "Yes, acceptance is the answer to all my problems today", or "No, I need to decide what is right and wrong; some things I can accept and some things need to be changed."

No one will just step up and agree...or disagree - straight up.

No matter how many people agree that the mirage is an oasis, you still can't drink the sand.

I'm willing to bet you also want to "learn to llive life on life's terms". Another of Dr Pauls ideas that are contrary to the BB.

[vegyman]

I talked to Dr. Paul several times before he passed away. He use to come to our local conventions (Mad Dog Days) and the ABC Rcovery Center.
He was an insperation to me as far as the amount of serinity that was felt around him as he causally chatted with us. Yup! thats what I wanted and thats what I worked for.

My grandsponsor has a class every week with the residents of the Center and all they do every week is read page 449 thru 452 on Dr. Paul's story, Week after week! Until it sinks in, LOL.

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

Once again...

Sharing experience, recounting events, rationalizing, studying stories instead of the basic text (not a good idea); there are apparently lots of ways to stall...and still? no one has the personal integrity and conviction to just agree...or disagree - straight up.? I? am quite clear - no vacillation or stuttering - acceptance? is not the answer to all my problems -?? spiritual principles are.

Surely a man regarded as a BB guru can be straightforward enough to take a stand.


BTW, this type of INDOCTRINATION is sometimes known as brainwashing: all they do every week is read page 449 thru 452 on Dr. Paul's story, Week after week! Until it sinks in," It's reminiscent of the George Orwell book: "1984"

[vegyman]

The ABC Recovery Center is rated one of the top 5 in the state of California, so they must be doing something right.

I believe that Acceptance is the answer to all my problems. Not just for my alcohol problems but for the problems I use to have in the outside world. It must work because April will make 6 years without a F2F meeting. You have your opinions, Willard, I have mine.

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

Rated in the top five by whom would be my question. It's not a question, but it would need exploration if it had any bearing on the subject.

If acceptance is the answer to all your problems, then you surely have no need for the courage to change the things you can and the wisdom to know the difference. I'm sure that simplifies life for you. With all due respect, six years w/o a face to face meeting is impressive only if one depends on meetings for one's serenity and sobriety.

Thanks for taking a stand.

There is more than one way to the spiritual experience that allows alcoholics to recover; the BB tells us we have no corner on the spiritual market. Some take the steps and abide by the principles - the clear cut directions in the BB - and others take a different approach. For those who are still struggling with their problem, it's important to know the difference. I decided to take the action of the steps. As a result, I have recovered from alcoholism?, as have tens of thousands of others. The problem was removed. It does not exist for me. The recovered state: just as described on page 85.

Choose your path wisely ; in the case of alcoholism, the difference in which path you take can literally be life or death. .

[samf]

Willard,

To me, the steps would be the practical program of action.

It seems the steps are a way for me to have a spiritual awakening or experience. Somehow, I am enabled to find a Higher Power, and he solves my drink problem...not me.

I realize I, too, know only a little.

Acceptance, courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference...all those things are real important to me...but my defense against the first drink comes from a Higher Power.

Samf

[vegyman]

The California Department of Alcohol & Drug Programs rates ABCs rate of recovery among the top 5 in the State. Pretty good huh? Willard!

If acceptance is the answer to all your problems, then you surely have no need for the courage to change the things you can and the wisdom to know the difference. I'm sure that simplifies life for you. ?

I really don't understand the point your trying to get acrossed? Willard. Lets look at the serenity prayer, the first half;

GOD, grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change

Doesn't it state that acceptance is infact needed? Once I accept the things I cannot change, then the problem no longer exists. Like in problem solved.

The second part of the serenity prayer says;

Courage to change the things I can and the Wisdom to know the difference.

Now,, Have you ever seen me back down from something I believe in? Willard. LOL.

I don't need meetings, Willard. I studied AA history and theres a group called loners international that is listed with ?AA World Services. Theirs about 275 members that have no way to reach the fellowship except by snail mail. They use the Big Book and all approved literture to get sober. When I met my future wife on line in 2001, I did a search to see if there was AA in the philippines and came up with nothing. As I started getting serious about my future wife, I knew that I had better get use to not attending meetings because there was no AA here in General Santos City. I stopped going to meetings so that if I did get drunk because of it,,, then at least my future wife wouldn't have to suffer this disease. As it turned out, it really started hitting my pocketbook to be going back and forth to the Philippines 3 times a year, but thats what I promised my wife I would do when we got married. Then in Dec of 2004 when I was here, a girl wanted us to adopt her day old baby. At the age of 58 and become a father again? It took an hour to tell the girl we would be happy to adopt her baby and give her my name. No sooner then I got back the California, my wife started IMing me that our baby(faith) wouldn't stop crying, then my wife started having fainting spells because her hemoglin count was ?way off. I prayed and my answer was to retire at that moment and go back to the Philippines. The hard part was that my mother being 83 years old and was losing her memory fast. I let my mom know what was happening, and she told me that my place was with my new family. It was the same message that I got from God. Just teturning from the Philippines, I was broke because we spent money on upgrades for the 15 computers we have in our internet cafe and when Faith came into our lives, it took our available cash flow down to nothing. It rained heavy during the months of January, febuary and march, so I wasn't able to sell vegys at the farmers markets. All I had was faith that God could and would if he were sought. I liquidated everything or gave it away. It was very hard to put 58 years of living into 2 suitcases and a carry-on. Sold my business, paid of my loans and had a set-up of 1,000 dollars a month sent to me for 27 years in exchange for 40 acres of ground. 2 1/2 months after I desided to retire, I still didn't have money to buy the plane ticket. And then the sky cleared and I was able to go sell my vegy's. Did good too real good. All I needed was one more market and I would have had a bank roll again. BUT as things turned out, the transmission in my van gave out before I could do that last market... I remember saying to my higher power; You really want me to live that hunbly, huh? LOL. ?April 6th of 2005 I landed in the Philippines, retired, sober and in all that time, had no desire to take a drink.

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

Any facility which helps those who suffer is OK in my book, regardless of where the state of CA ranks them.

Quite a story you have there. Seems as if you had the courage to change a lot in your life. Are you sure acceptance is the answer to all your problems? Doesn't sound like it to me.? Lets see: you used spiritual principles as the answer to all your problems....accepting what couldn't be changed and had the courage to make changes when you could. Hmmm

Regardless, God worked then and is working in your life now? - and that's a good thing.

Page 28 tells us, in part, "The distinguished American psychologist, William James, in his book "Varieties of Religious Experience," indicates a multitude of ways in which men have discovered God. We have no desire to convince anyone that there is only one way by which faith can be acquired."

There is more than one way to experience the spiritual awakening necessary to effect the recovered state.

On the other hand, there is only one program. Anything - anything at all - that is in conflict with the BB needs to be pointed out and discussed. Whether one then chooses to follow the clear cut directions showing precisely how to recover is an individual matter - but the newcomer needs to know the differences. My duty is to point out the conflict in what is promoted as it relates to what is written. I find that I'm pretty good at doing that.

[vegyman]

Sure, Willard. In accepting God and doing what I feel is his will, I have no problems. Accepting that God could and
would if he were sought. No more problems.

Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardship as the pathway to peace.

Taking, as He did, this sinful world as it is,
not as I would have it.

Trusting that He will make all things right if I
surrender to His Will;

That I may be reasonably happy in this life,
and supremely happy with Him forever in
the next.

Thats it, in a nut shell, Willard. the second verus in the serenity prayer. When I got here, Faith had colic and was crying day and night. I taught Faith at 5 months old to ***** about it and not cry about it. She won't stop her baby talk for a second now, LOL. Will make some man a good wife. My wife , as soon as I got home wanted a divorse and I told her she couldn't have a divorse because we were married in the Philippines and they don't allow them here. LOL. It's been a long journey, but serenity has never left me.


My duty is to point out the conflict in what is promoted as it relates to what is written. I find that I'm pretty good at doing that.

Your self pointed duty maybe. I listen, but I cannot hear you, Willard.

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

Zymurgy

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

For those who may have forgotten, "zymurgy" is the last listed word in the dictionary. I always use it when signing off for two reasons:
1] It's perfect because it's the "last word" and
2] The definition just slays me: " a branch of applied chemistry that deals with fermentation processes (as in wine making or brewing)"

How's that for the perfect "last word" from an alcoholic!

Accept means to reconcile satisfactorily or to regard as normal. If you can do that with all your problems, you don't need to change anything - ever.

[vegyman]

RIGHT! Willard, now you got it! reconcile satisfactorily in my mind that God could and would if he were sought! AND to regard God as a? normal part of my life. I don't have to change what I am presently doing ,, ever! Is that too hard to understand?

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

No - I don't got it.

Please - no need for any more "explanation". Let me wallow in my ignorance. I made a big mistake getting into this with you...I accept that.

You state your case with the tactic of Darwinian evolutionists. Their"logic" uses elastic arguments; take a position, then fit the facts to the predetermined conclusion. I'm in awe.

[vegyman]

Naaaa, Willard I don't do that stuff, I just live it.

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

<sigh> Whatever you say is OK by me; acceptance is the answer to all my problems today.

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

How about this one: "If all I do is stay sober today, I'm a success". I hear that one from time to time.

Can you reconcile/rationalize that with this from page 82: "We feel a man is unthinking when he says that sobriety is enough" ? Hardly sounds "successful" just to stay sober today.

If I were a gamblin' man (and I do place a small wager occaisonally) one of you out there will try to defend this. Anyone?

[vegyman]

How about this slogan, Willard


Change is inevitable, growth is optional

Made it up myself, LOL.

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

Please - that one has been floating around since long before I got here. And, as usual, you avoid the issue.

[WolfM]

It is still amazing to me that no one will say "Yes, acceptance is the answer to all my problems today", or "No, I need to decide what is right and wrong; some things I can accept and some things need to be changed."

No one will just step up and agree...or disagree - straight up.

No matter how many people agree that the mirage is an oasis, you still can't drink the sand.

I'm willing to bet you also want to "learn to llive life on life's terms". Another of Dr Pauls ideas that are contrary to the BB.


Dear Willard,
I have always struggled with this. When do I cross the line from acceptance to just shirking my responsibility to do something about my situation? So acceptance is NOT the answer to ALL my problems. That is why I have to ask God to grant me the ability to distinguish between the two.
Wolf

[zangraprem]

Hey! Hello everybody! I really enjoyed and learned a lot from this discussion.Can you please let me know what i have to do if my plane captain announce that this plane is going to crash land and i am advised to jump and open the parachute. There is something about self-righteous people in BB. And I am world champion.

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

? "Can you please let me know what i have to do if my plane captain announce that this plane is going to crash land and i am advised to jump and open the parachute."

What you "have to do" is make a decision. First, notice it's an announcement - nothing more - you are not required to do anything.? If acceptance is the answer to all your problems today? , like vegyman and others,? just accept the planes' going to crash and wait for it to happen.

Second, remember the advice is singular, but with two parts. It will do you no good to jump without opening the chute.
Sorta like "trust God and clean house": one condition, two components.

Self righteous, indeed. Normally when I hear that term it's directed at me. And, now here you are claiming to be the world champion. Sure gets me off the hook. Thanks.

[vegyman]

After reading your post, Willard I have decided the slogan, Some are sicker then others! is in fact true.

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

Vegy, I figured you out. Since acceptance is the answer to all your problems I know you can handle that.

Some are sicker than others, I believe that too. But if they take the action of the steps and have the spiritual awakening, they recover from alcoholism. Then they aren't sick any more.

That's what happened to me. I was very, very sick, but I'm well now. How about you?

[vegyman]

I don't know,,, Willard, I use to enjoy all that havoc and destruction all around me. I still like "sick" once in a while to this day as long as it doesn't hurt any one. LOL. Yup! Use to end up in a bar fight and start my chainsaw and run after the guy! LOL.

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

I do believe you still like "sick" every once in a while. Suit yourself.

[NancyJ]

Why don't you two little boys either quit your squabble or settle it in the schoolyard during recess. I don't see how either one of you are being helpful to anyone with your petty little arguments.

[PHANTOM VISITOR]

Well Nancy - looks like you jumped in without reading the whole thread. Let me copy a quote from yesterday:
"I really enjoyed and learned a lot from this discussion"

And you said, "I don't see how either one of you are being helpful to anyone..."

Care to reconsider that remark?

As to it being a? "petty squabble"; so glad you decided to participate.

[vegyman]

Willard and I both believe recovery is in the Big Book, by debating different subjects,we try to help others form their own opinions. Seems like you formed an opinion, huh? LOL.

[Carol87]

Ah - come on Nancy!? ?Boys will be boys !!?? ?:D ;D? We are not a glum lot!? ?

I don't agree with everything in this thread but I have also learned new things ... let's look for the positives!? ?8)

[Carol87]

This thread is confusing me! :-\? ?We have so many topics going on in one place ... acronyms, slogans, parts of personal stories, BB quotes ...? !!!?

To Keep it Simple ... I moved the latest posts on acceptance to a new topic under Topic Discussion.? 8)

[MIKEYBEEF]

the only reason im alive is so my shadow will have something to do. Who said this?

[joyroadman]

Willard,first off,I have not read all the thread but ran across something worth mentioning..

from your previous early post-"Step four begins the work of HOW we do that - three being nothing more than a decision"

I disagree with that and so does the founders of AA and the Big Book

now according to the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous,you have slipped right by the 3rd step.
from chapter 5--step 3

This is the how and the why of it. First of all, we had to
quit playing God. It didn't work. Next, we decided
that hereafter in this drama of life, God was going to
be our Director. (ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS)

looks like 2 things mentioned and one of them mentions " a descision"...
it`s a surrender,and action,it takes action to stop playing God

Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may
better do Thy will.
so that right there tells me I can and did do Gods`s will before the 4th step.I could not think my way into God`s will alone,it took my stopping playing God like I used to do,which is a action.

"God, I offer myself to
Thee--to build with me and to do with me as Thou
wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may
better do Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that
victory over them may bear witness to those I would
help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of life.
May I do Thy will always!"

We thought well before
taking this step making sure we were ready; that we
could at last abandon ourselves utterly to Him.
(ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, page 63)

now the greatest action of this step is God`s Grace coming into our lives....